CX-5 Tapping noise

Jack Rabbit

Banned
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18 Mazda CX5 AW
Ok. Engine has been making noise for some time now. Indy mechanic last year said its just injectors. Took to dealer last year to have whole car checked out and said check the engine for any problems, especially cracked cylinder head. Vocally mentioned the sound and was told it's the injectors. They had the vehicle and heard it running.

I usually jump in my car and startup and then drive.

So today, while checking the brakes, left vehicle idling to go get my wheelchocks, and heard this from 60 feet away.

Sure sounds like the valves to me.

Also if you listen you can hear both the injectors clicking but you can also hear the tapping noise.

And it hasn't thrown any engine related codes.

Any opinions?
Lifters, HLA's or injectors ???
Thanks.
 
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Just got a call from the Service advisor. In addition to fixing the HLA's, with the timing belt cover off, they found a minor oil leak AND also water pump leak. Both will be fixed and covered under warranty. Glad to hear it's covered, but a bit scary considering the car only has just over 33K miles on it.

I'm beginning to wonder if after all the work is done that I should put it up for sale. In comparison, my 2013 Lincoln MKX which has over 73K miles on it has been stellar, needing only basic maintenance and some body rust repair performed by the dealer under warranty a few yrs. back.
Actually there’re TSBs for both timing chain cover leak and water pump leak for the 2.5L but not sure if your 2018 CX-5 is included. The unique 2-piece cylinder block design on the SkyActiv-G engine could contribute the oil leak on timing chain cover.
 
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And it's a bit surprising to me that they removed the timing cover, because the toolset they received for doing the 2021 Turbo valve stem seal replacement would allow them to replace the HLAs without needing to remove the timing cover. Doing the work with the timing cover in place would be quite a bit less work for them, but perhaps they're just more comfortable doing this job the way they've always done it in the past.
2.5T doesn’t use larger-sized switchable HLAs hence that special tool designed to replace the valve stem seals on the 2.5T may not fit the 2.5L NA with cylinder deactivation.
 
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2.5T doesn’t use larger-sized switchable HLAs hence that special tool designed to replace the valve stem seals on the 2.5T may not fit the 2.5L NA with cylinder deactivation.
If someone wanted to swap just an HLA on a turbo engine, they would only need to do the steps through page 24 of TSB # 01-011/22, and the toolset parts used for the rest of the valve train removal would not be needed. So basically, it's just the 'main body' and the 'spring compression tool' which need to be compatible, in order for that TSB process to be usable.

However, you may very well be correct about those parts not fitting a non-turbo engine. And if it's true that they don't fit a non-turbo, then it seems to be a no-brainer to me, that Mazda should have those parts built and distributed to the dealers ASAP, in order to be able to replace these switchable HLAs with the minimum amount of effort. And why not a non-turbo version of the entire toolset as well while we're at it?

And if any third party tool makers are reading this stuff, I think there might be a collection of people (indy shops and DIYers) who would be VERY interested in being able to buy these tools, at a price which doesn't require taking out a second mortgage, or selling a child.
 
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Work is completed. Hydraulic lash adjusters (8) replaced, timing cover gasket replaced and water pump replaced. Engine sounds nice and quiet again. We'll see after it sits overnight. Some oil burning off now from the repairs. Was told it may linger for a day or two depending on how much the car is driven. I'll be keeping a close eye on that...

Here's a snip from the work order showing work done. Got a chuckle when I saw the notation about the TPMS indicator flashing.....I don't have TPMS on my snow rims/tires.

1676071234459.png
 
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Work is completed. Hydraulic lash adjusters (8) replaced, timing cover gasket replaced and water pump replaced. Engine sounds nice and quiet again. We'll see after it sits overnight. Some oil burning off now from the repairs. Was told it may linger for a day or two depending on how much the car is driven. I'll be keeping a close eye on that...

Here's a snip from the work order showing work done. Got a chuckle when I saw the notation about the TPMS indicator flashing.....I don't have TPMS on my snow rims/tires.

View attachment 316973
Thanks for the update. Can’t see anything related to water pump replacement such as FL-22 coolant listed. Unfortunately the maintenance interval on your coolant will be cut into half with FL-22 coolant replacement.
 
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Thanks for the update. Can’t see anything related to water pump replacement such as FL-22 coolant listed. Unfortunately the maintenance interval on your coolant will be cut into half with FL-22 coolant replacement.
Pump and gasket are noted at the bottom of the work order. Nothing around the coolant, but if the pump is being replaced, they have no choice but to empty and refill the cooling system. When I got back in the car, the tell tale sign was the heater being turned up to max, which tells me they re-filled and made sure the system had no air pockets. Why it's not on the WO, I have no idea. I also checked he coolant reservoir after getting the car back and it's at the full mark.

What's the normal interval for the FL22 coolant? I'd normally replace the coolant every 5 yrs.
 
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Pump and gasket are noted at the bottom of the work order. Nothing around the coolant, but if the pump is being replaced, they have no choice but to empty and refill the cooling system. When I got back in the car, the tell tale sign was the heater being turned up to max, which tells me they re-filled and made sure the system had no air pockets. Why it's not on the WO, I have no idea. I also checked he coolant reservoir after getting the car back and it's at the full mark.

What's the normal interval for the FL22 coolant? I'd normally replace the coolant every 5 yrs.
FL-22 coolant is expensive. I don’t believe your Mazda dealer wouldn’t list FL-22 coolant on the invoice which will charge it to the Mazda North American Operations if they actually used a new jug of the FL-22 coolant. The other possibility is the tech collected the factory coolant drained and re-used it (possible contamination).

The coolant change interval for the CX-5 is to replace the factory coolant at first 120,000 miles or 10 years; after that, every 60,000 miles or 5 years.
 
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Work is completed. Hydraulic lash adjusters (8) replaced, ...
Great to read that this repair was successfully completed, with all of the switchable HLAs replaced! The HLAs were listed as N/C, which leads me to believe that your dealer did not have to kick in anything for them. Did they happen to say anything which would confirm that, and/or if they had any pushback from Mazda Corporate about replacing all 8 of them? I'm trying to find out if Corporate has moved on to a policy of automatically replacing all of them, or if there is still going to potentially be discussion and contention about the number of HLAs being replaced.

Assuming that nothing bad happens, it will take at least a few weeks to start feeling comfortable that the air bubbles and associated noise have been permanently eliminated. So it would be great if you could post back in a month or so, with one final follow up on how things are going with your vehicle.

MANY thanks again for taking the time to do all of the reporting that you did. We rarely get comprehensive and reliable information like this, and you have provided lots of help for others here who have been trying to figure out what's going on with this issue (y) (y)
 
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Great to read that this repair was successfully completed, with all of the switchable HLAs replaced! The HLAs were listed as N/C, which leads me to believe that your dealer did not have to kick in anything for them. Did they happen to say anything which would confirm that, and/or if they had any pushback from Mazda Corporate about replacing all 8 of them? I'm trying to find out if Corporate has moved on to a policy of automatically replacing all of them, or if there is still going to potentially be discussion and contention about the number of HLAs being replaced.

Assuming that nothing bad happens, it will take at least a few weeks to start feeling comfortable that the air bubbles and associated noise have been permanently eliminated. So it would be great if you could post back in a month or so, with one final follow up on how things are going with your vehicle.

MANY thanks again for taking the time to do all of the reporting that you did. We rarely get comprehensive and reliable information like this, and you have provided lots of help for others here who have been trying to figure out what's going on with this issue (y) (y)
The first hurdle is getting them to recognize the problem and hear it while it's in the shop. Even with video, if they dont hear it then it's nonexistent. Consumers are forced to wait until it becomes a consistent tapping versus intermittent tapping.
 
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The first hurdle is getting them to recognize the problem and hear it while it's in the shop. Even with video, if they dont hear it then it's nonexistent. Consumers are forced to wait until it becomes a consistent tapping versus intermittent tapping.
Yes, that's a very unfortunate aspect of this problem at this point in time.

However, it's possible that if more cases of this start happening, Mazda might very well ease up on the requirements for approving the repair. And that will become even much more likely if a few vehicles show up with significant secondary engine damage, which was directly caused by the failed HLA(s) and the uncompensated valve trains hammering away, and physically damaging and impacting the way the engine runs. That would of course be a wake up call to Mazda that they need to be much more proactive on getting those HLAs replaced.

IMO, all Mazda needs to be able to do on this issue is simply add 2+2. Over the past couple of years, they developed what I believe is an exceptionally well done procedure and toolset for changing the 2021 turbo valve stem seals. From all of the owner reports so far, the results of that effort have basically been a complete success.

Unless there is some gotcha that I'm not aware of, replacing switchable HLAs on the NA engine would only be a subset of that more complicated turbo valve stem procedure. With properly sized and fitted NA versions of the 'Main Body' and 'Spring Compression Tool' components of the valve stem toolset, it should be easy and simple to swap the NA HLAs, basically using only the steps through page 24 of the valve stem TSB procedure.

And if what I wrote above is true, then the Mazda's cost to replace the HLAs would just be the cost of the parts, plus a couple hours of dealer service time. Not a big deal IMO, particularly when compared to issues like the cracked turbo heads. If this procedure would work as well as I believe it should, I believe Mazda could resolve a large percentage of this issue by doing a small but steady number of them over time. I guess we'll find out what actually happens, in a few years from now.
 
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FL-22 coolant is expensive. I don’t believe your Mazda dealer wouldn’t list FL-22 coolant on the invoice which will charge it to the Mazda North American Operations if they actually used a new jug of the FL-22 coolant. The other possibility is the tech collected the factory coolant drained and re-used it (possible contamination).

The coolant change interval for the CX-5 is to replace the factory coolant at first 120,000 miles or 10 years; after that, every 60,000 miles or 5 years.
I guess it's possible they may have refilled it with the captured drained used coolant and then just topped it up. I've gone back to my service advisor to confirm.

Personally, I wouldn't let it go 10 yrs or 120K miles. 5-7 yrs. or 60K miles would be my limits. Same goes for transmission and diff oils. I believe it's cheap insurance to keep the fluids and filters (where applicable) fresh.
 
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Great to read that this repair was successfully completed, with all of the switchable HLAs replaced! The HLAs were listed as N/C, which leads me to believe that your dealer did not have to kick in anything for them. Did they happen to say anything which would confirm that, and/or if they had any pushback from Mazda Corporate about replacing all 8 of them? I'm trying to find out if Corporate has moved on to a policy of automatically replacing all of them, or if there is still going to potentially be discussion and contention about the number of HLAs being replaced.

Assuming that nothing bad happens, it will take at least a few weeks to start feeling comfortable that the air bubbles and associated noise have been permanently eliminated. So it would be great if you could post back in a month or so, with one final follow up on how things are going with your vehicle.

MANY thanks again for taking the time to do all of the reporting that you did. We rarely get comprehensive and reliable information like this, and you have provided lots of help for others here who have been trying to figure out what's going on with this issue (y) (y)
Time will tell for sure on whether the repair made fixes this issue. I fired it up this morning and it sounds as it should. Fingers (and toes) crossed no more tapping! I'll keep the forum posted on how things go over the next while.

When the dealer agreed to fix the issue, they ordered the 8 switchable HLA's (and other parts needed for the repair) right up front, which left me with the impression they would replace them all. No idea if they had to confirm with Mazda Corp. prior to ordering for the job. Just glad they did them all.

Hope this thread that Jack Rabbit started can help other Mazda owners if they run into this problem. Happy to share my experience.
 
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The first hurdle is getting them to recognize the problem and hear it while it's in the shop. Even with video, if they dont hear it then it's nonexistent.
That is perfectly understandable. The first step in troubleshooting an abnormal sound or behavior is to recreate it. If you drop it off and they cannot recreate it then step two is get a tech or manager in the car and recreate it for them. The limitations of audio-video recordings compared to the naked eye and ear ought to be obvious.
 
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Time will tell for sure on whether the repair made fixes this issue. I fired it up this morning and it sounds as it should. Fingers (and toes) crossed no more tapping! I'll keep the forum posted on how things go over the next while. ....
One of the biggest hurdles is that this whole 'air bubble' issue is a totally random thing. Why did it happen to your vehicle, but neither one of ours (so far), when the maintenance and operation of all 3 is basically identical? Who the heck knows. And how long will it take to 'prove' that the new version of the switchable HLAs really does fix the air bubble issue? Who the heck knows. But nevertheless, it's certainly a positive thing that the noise was eliminated in your vehicle by replacing the old HLAs with the new version. And the more time that goes by with no noise, the better it looks.
... When the dealer agreed to fix the issue, they ordered the 8 switchable HLA's (and other parts needed for the repair) right up front, which left me with the impression they would replace them all. No idea if they had to confirm with Mazda Corp. prior to ordering for the job. Just glad they did them all. ...
Ok, that probably means that your dealer didn't have a big confrontation with Corporate, because the dealer would probably have just bailed out of any push back, and agreed with whatever Corporate wanted to do.



... Hope this thread that Jack Rabbit started can help other Mazda owners if they run into this problem. Happy to share my experience.
Some of us here watch this stuff very closely, and we're almost certainly going to use your experience as a reference for anyone in a similar situation of trying to figure out what to do about excessive top end engine noise. So don't be surprised if you're contacted by others who are going through the same thing that you just did.

Thanks again - it's very much appreciated!
 
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Why did it happen to your vehicle, but neither one of ours (so far), when the maintenance and operation of all 3 is basically identical? Who the heck knows.
Well, we do know some of the possible variables though pinning down the critical factor(s) in any one of the small number of failure cases is near impossible. It's not just this problem; it's a rare problem that is anywhere near universal. Here are some of those variables:
  • Different engine plants
  • Different assembly plants
  • Differing equipment calibrations within the same plant over time
  • Different batches of parts; even different suppliers of the same part which you would not know about unless a problem arises and the cause is mentioned in a TSB (see non-turbo failsafe thermostat in the coolant control valve)
  • Changes to the materials, specifications or manufacturing process of a part, none of which you would know about unless a problem arises and the manufacturer discloses it (see turbo valve seals)
  • Different driving habits--ranging from high-revving zoom zooming to living life in stop-and-go daily rush hour slogs
  • Different driving conditions, ranging from extreme cold to extreme heat; Mazda even attributes the cracked cylinder heads in turbos to driving on bumpy roads :rolleyes:; perhaps certain engine problems are correlated to current or previously repaired bad engine mounts resulting in the engine moving around during operation which is not accounted for in tolerances; the possibilities are endless
  • Different maintenance routines, fluids, materials
I wonder about weather extremes in particular. Mazda does cold weather testing in Kenbuchi, Hokkaido, Japan. Average temps there do not indicate extreme cold like what you might find at Toyota's cold weather testing facility in Timmons ON. I'm not finding where Mazda does extreme heat testing other than in a simulation booth. Honda, on the other hand, tests their vehicles in the Mojave.
 
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Well, we do know some of the possible variables though pinning down the critical factor(s) in any one of the small number of failure cases is near impossible. It's not just this problem; it's a rare problem that is anywhere near universal. Here are some of those variables:
  • Different engine plants
  • Different assembly plants
  • Differing equipment calibrations within the same plant over time
  • Different batches of parts; even different suppliers of the same part which you would not know about unless a problem arises and the cause is mentioned in a TSB (see non-turbo failsafe thermostat in the coolant control valve)
  • Changes to the materials, specifications or manufacturing process of a part, none of which you would know about unless a problem arises and the manufacturer discloses it (see turbo valve seals)
  • Different driving habits--ranging from high-revving zoom zooming to living life in stop-and-go daily rush hour slogs
  • Different driving conditions, ranging from extreme cold to extreme heat; Mazda even attributes the cracked cylinder heads in turbos to driving on bumpy roads :rolleyes:; perhaps certain engine problems are correlated to current or previously repaired bad engine mounts resulting in the engine moving around during operation which is not accounted for in tolerances; the possibilities are endless
  • Different maintenance routines, fluids, materials
I wonder about weather extremes in particular. Mazda does cold weather testing in Kenbuchi, Hokkaido, Japan. Average temps there do not indicate extreme cold like what you might find at Toyota's cold weather testing facility in Timmons ON. I'm not finding where Mazda does extreme heat testing other than in a simulation booth. Honda, on the other hand, tests their vehicles in the Mojave.
Everything that you wrote about there being many variables in most problems is certainly true. However, by posting this to what I've written about this particular situation, IMO you've missed one key point. Which is; thanks to macker's willingness to provide information, we've established that a number of key variables are basically identical for our 3 vehicles. I'm not going to rehash that again - you can read it above if you care to. But the summary page says that we're definitely talking apples-to-apples with these 3 Mazdas.

Yes, his vehicle's problem HLAs could have been made in a different factory than the ones in our vehicles, and could be the root cause of the air bubble issue. But that's not going to ever help us, unless Mazda provides a list of all of the VINs which have the problem parts installed (if that in fact were the case).

And I also have two takeaways from all of the information that we've exchanged. The first one is that I have no reason to believe that this air bubble issue won't happen to one or both of our vehicles, tomorrow, next week, or next year. Or anyone else's vehicle for that matter either. And the second takeaway is that there is nothing that I can do to prevent it from happening, with the (likely) exception of swapping out the HLAs.
 
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...thanks to macker's willingness to provide information, we've established that a number of key variables are basically identical for our 3 vehicles...
Few of the variables I listed can be verified for comparison regarding this problem or just about any other. Here's what I gleaned from macker's posts:
  • He bought the vehicle used with 19,000 km on it. It's a CPO so the dealer must have a record of the minimum required maintenance, an oil change at 12,500 km (7,500 miles). We don't know how it was driven or under what conditions by the first owner.
  • The valve tapping was not noticeable in warm weather; it is most noticeable below 5 degrees C; video clip was from -8 degrees C. The problem is most likely to occur after the vehicle had been sitting out overnight or for a few days. The tapping starts after a couple minutes of idling.
  • He changes the oil every 5,000 miles with an OEM filter and Castrol Edge. The vehicle currently has 33,000 miles.
There's hardly anything to compare. From what we do know just about anybody living in northern states or in Canada would approximate macker's conditions in the winter.

Also you assume that the air bubble TSB (covering 2018 - 2021 CD models) supersedes the earlier bleed down TSB (covering only 2018 - 2019 CD models). That that may not be the case at all. The circumstances where the noise occurs is described a little differently in one TSB vs. the other, and that earlier TSB is not listed as one of the superseded TSBs in the later one. For all you know, macker's problem would only occur in the 2018-2019 models as addressed in the earlier TSB whereas the bubble problem could occur in 2018-2021 models. This would suggest an HLA modification for the 2020 model year that solved one problem but not all, with yet another mod for 2022+ and, one would presume, current replacement parts.
 
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Yes, his vehicle's problem HLAs could have been made in a different factory than the ones in our vehicles, and could be the root cause of the air bubble issue. But that's not going to ever help us, unless Mazda provides a list of all of the VINs which have the problem parts installed (if that in fact were the case).
It's not just two different factories, it's two models two years apart with no telling what differences may apply. But that's beside the the point. Just because you don't have the info necessary to draw a sound conclusion doesn't justify drawing conclusions from the insufficient information you have. You should get thrown out of "science school" ;) for that. Some question have no answers.
 
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