Troubling Engine Noise

BenjiHoggi

OEM+
:
Oregon, USA
:
22v Protege5
I'm making a thread with more details because I feel bad cluttering up the "What did you do to your P5...." thread.

It seems like I don't have a rod-knock by traditional definition, but I do have a concerning (likely internal) engine noise. I noticed it first while cold starting in sub-freezing temps, but I can faintly hear it now at idle, warm or cold. The noise is distinctly on the left side of the engine. It's barely audible (or not at all) within the vehicle. It seems to go away or become muffled as I rev the engine above about 2500. At idle (at least while cold) it seems too frequent to be a knock, and it sometimes skips a beat or gets off-sync with the rest of the normal 'noises'.

I have attached a recording of a cold started this afternoon, starting about 30 seconds after initial start. I could hear a noise while revving it to probably 2k, and also at idle. Towards the end of the clip at idle, you can hear a faster repeating/sometimes inconsistent rattle and a more faint slower-repeating knock sort of sound.

Now, I know you might be thinking...VICS (and I'm not necessarily sure that it is NOT VICS), but the noise persists when the car is warm, just less audibly. I actually unplugged both the white and green plugs to the solenoids under the stabilizer bar, and while the engine seems to run more smoothly when cold, the noise was there either way. The audio was taken with them unplugged. (I'm not sure if unplugging disables VICS or not but I would assume so, as it also triggers a CEL and I can hear the noise of the actuator moving things.)

I had a mechanic listen to the car and he quickly recognized the noise. He told me it was not rod knock, but he was unable to figure out where it was coming from, and essentially told me to keep driving it and see if it gets worse.

Background/my ideas:
170k miles, original engine, burns some oil (maybe 2 quarts MAX between changes).
Oil/filter always changed at 2500-3700 miles with 5W-30 for the last 27k of my ownership.
I let it warm up for 30-60 seconds before driving and don't rev past 3k until warm.
Oil was barely below full when the noise started. Topped off to be safe.
Compression has not been checked. Oil has not yet been drained to check for metal, but I plan to do that soon.
Valve clearances probably have never been checked or adjusted.
Knock sensor is leaking it's goo, and while I have a new one on order, I don't expect it to fix or be even related to the problem (I've just been needing to replace it for a while now.
I am going to try to do an oil analysis to see if that reveals the problem.
I may also try to run the engine without accessory belts for a moment to see if those things are causing the noise.

Your comments and feedback are greatly appreciated. If nothing else, this can serve as an idea for others on what to expect with an engine failure, if that is what I am dealing with. I will make sure to update.
 

Attachments

  • P5_cold_start_noise.mp3
    1 MB
Last edited:
Do you/have you heard any squeaking while driving or during the same time because that sounds like a maybe repairable (but definitely not as bad) version of what my motor sounded like when the bearings shot, a knocking noise but not the rods and not always consistent. but this is my not knowledgeable worst-case guess.
 
Do you/have you heard any squeaking while driving or during the same time because that sounds like a maybe repairable (but definitely not as bad) version of what my motor sounded like when the bearings shot, a knocking noise but not the rods and not always consistent. but this is my not knowledgeable worst-case guess.
Actually yes. It's not a belt squeak I don't believe. It's much more faint and occasionally comes on when the car is cold and I start driving it slowly through the parking lot. It always goes away when I rev the engine just a bit. I only started to notice it just recently, maybe a few weeks before I heard the other noise. I did not think it could be related, and frankly I have not given it any thought until now.

Edit: Relating to bearing replacement, the mechanic I talked to did mention that while it is not proper, I could technically drop the oil pan and try to do a jenky bearing job, presumably with the engine still in the car.
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately, I think it may be your bearings slowly going out. If you notice it and can stop, see if it is coming from the bottom of the motor, I noticed it on my "new" motor a few weeks back after driving a little too hard with not quite enough oil in the car at the time so I'm already planning on having to swap it again but have always wanted to go KL motor which is why I'm just riding it out.

Despite being technically new to the community I know 170k on the original motor is considered pretty good, I hope this is not the case but I wish you the best of luck in either direction.

Edit: I should say that sounds exactly like my squeaking except I tend to notice when coasting at ~70mph the most
 
Unfortunately, I think it may be your bearings slowly going out. If you notice it and can stop, see if it is coming from the bottom of the motor, I noticed it on my "new" motor a few weeks back after driving a little too hard with not quite enough oil in the car at the time so I'm already planning on having to swap it again but have always wanted to go KL motor which is why I'm just riding it out.

Despite being technically new to the community I know 170k on the original motor is considered pretty good, I hope this is not the case but I wish you the best of luck in either direction.

Edit: I should say that sounds exactly like my squeaking except I tend to notice when coasting at ~70mph the most
Hmm. Well I dearly hope it's not that, but I'm not going to keep my hopes up too much.

I'd also love to do a KL swap in the future, but the problem is that this is my only car and I have absolutely no access to tools or a place to work on the car right now, so it needs to last me until the summer when the weather is better and I have more time to work on the car and possibly swap an engine.

I will update if more things happen. Thanks for the advice, it is very helpful!
 
You are welcome and I hope you can prove me wrong!
I noticed the issues I've been having and decided I really needed a newer car and found a good deal on a 17 WRX so I'm just saving all I can to eventually make the p5 reliable and even more fun. And yeah, I have nowhere to work on it but I won't for a long time so there is a really good aftermarket shop here I think I want to work with for the car.
 
If its going - its going. Not much you can do unless you open it up. But have you tried using lucas oil additive? I know guys who swear by it to quiet a noisy motor. Side note - i know a guy who did bearings from below. It lasted a year or so then began burning alot of oil and fouling plugs what seemed like weekly. Not sure if that sped up the process or not but he had to pull the engine for a rebuild eventually. It boils down to time and money and what you can do at that time.
 
If its going - its going. Not much you can do unless you open it up.
i know a guy who did bearings from below. It lasted a year or so then began burning alot of oil and fouling plugs what seemed like weekly. Not sure if that sped up the process or not but he had to pull the engine for a rebuild eventually.
I figure. The mechanic I took it to said I could do the bearings with the engine in the car, but that's not a proper way to do it and I would only be borrowing more time. I guess the proper way is to pull the entire engine apart and replace all the bearings, clean oil passages, have a machine shop check things over etc.
But have you tried using lucas oil additive? I know guys who swear by it to quiet a noisy motor.
The mechanic also mentioned exactly that, so I think I'll try it. I am under no illusions that it'll save my motor in the long run. I just need more time.
It boils down to time and money and what you can do at that time.
That's the part that stinks. I don't have the tools, time, or other transportation to be able to delve into a rebuild now. Come summer, I will be in a better situation for all of those things, and at that point this becomes a fun (and somewhat expensive) project.

If I was able to tear into it now before more damage occurs, I would probably pull the motor and address everything. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to keep driving the car, albeit very gingerly, which will probably mean catastrophic engine failure at some point soon.

Come summer, regardless of whether it is still running or not, I will probably source a new engine, either JDM or the best possible one from a local yard. As-is, the clutch is getting soft, I have no records of the timing belt change (just crossed 170k), the engine burns oil, the mounts need replacement, the EGR needs cleaning, etc. If I can take care of a whole bunch of things at once, that would make this worth all of the hassle. I love this car and am not yet ready to give up on it.
 
Just an FYI,..

You can also do a "quick and sloppy" ring job on your pistons from below without removing your engine.

That will get your oil burning and engine knock taken care of in one procedure.
 
Just an FYI,..

You can also do a "quick and sloppy" ring job on your pistons from below without removing your engine.

That will get your oil burning and engine knock taken care of in one procedure.
I found the thread by MrGiggles where he did a ring job without removing the engine.

Thread 'Questions About Parts for my Rebuild' Questions About Parts for my Rebuild
Thanks for the suggestions, as always, pcb.

The mechanic I took it to also said the same thing, but warned that that would not be the proper way to fix the issue, given that metal shavings and pieces could have already cycled through the block and ruined other things. The car still runs and drives fine (for now), and right now I do not have the space, time, or tools to do that much work on my car.

If I can limp it to summer and I know the problem is the bearings, I'll just buy a new engine. If it does not make it until summer, I have a friend who may sell me his extra car, or I will buy a beater. If it was summer right now and I had the space and time, I would definitely park the car now, pull the engine, and embark on a full rebuild.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcb
Ahhh, OK.
I don't know much about rebuilding engines.
I did tear the engine apart from my parts car, but putting it back together properly is beyond my abilities.

I could probably swap an engine if I had to, but it might take me a month, and there would be a lot of swearing. Lol
 
BenjiHoggi - "I had a mechanic listen to the car and he quickly recognized the noise. He told me it was not rod knock, but he was unable to figure out where it was coming from, and essentially told me to keep driving it and see if it gets worse."

Pump noise?

Maybe Air Conditioning compressor/power steering/water pump noise on that side of the engine?:unsure:
 
BenjiHoggi - "I had a mechanic listen to the car and he quickly recognized the noise. He told me it was not rod knock, but he was unable to figure out where it was coming from, and essentially told me to keep driving it and see if it gets worse."

Pump noise?

Maybe Air Conditioning compressor/power steering/water pump noise on that side of the engine?:unsure:
Ah yes. So aside from an internal engine failure, that's the other main theory that comes to mind. My method for eliminating or identifying it as the cause would be to briefly run the engine without the serpentine belts. I haven't done this so far though because of time, but I may still do it.

I'm pretty sure though that it's not the culprit, based on the frequency of the noise and the different ways it manifests itself. It sounds too quiet and subtle to be anything but the beginnings of engine failure.

On the positive side, it's been 200 miles since I noticed the noise and it has not gotten significantly worse. Here's to hoping it'll stay together for a while longer.
 
Did you get a chance to try the Lucas oil stabilizer?
Maybe check your spark plugs. I know a guy who thought he had rod knock. Turned out one of the plugs on his bmw was loose and ended up blowing out of the head. 1 threaded insert later its been running fine ever since. Simple thing to check even if it sounds ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcb
Did you get a chance to try the Lucas oil stabilizer?
I bought some and put a little in, but it wants me to replace 20% of my oil capacity with it. If I get around to taking an oil sample to send to Blackstone for analysis, I'll try to replace the lost oil with the stabilizer.
Maybe check your spark plugs. I know a guy who thought he had rod knock. Turned out one of the plugs on his bmw was loose and ended up blowing out of the head. 1 threaded insert later its been running fine ever since. Simple thing to check even if it sounds ridiculous.
I did check the spark plugs but didn't find anything amiss. They were all tight. Just black and dirty as always, probably because of burning oil.
 
I'm making a thread with more details because I feel bad cluttering up the "What did you do to your P5...." thread.

It seems like I don't have a rod-knock by traditional definition, but I do have a concerning (likely internal) engine noise. I noticed it first while cold starting in sub-freezing temps, but I can faintly hear it now at idle, warm or cold. The noise is distinctly on the left side of the engine. It's barely audible (or not at all) within the vehicle. It seems to go away or become muffled as I rev the engine above about 2500. At idle (at least while cold) it seems too frequent to be a knock, and it sometimes skips a beat or gets off-sync with the rest of the normal 'noises'.

I have attached a recording of a cold started this afternoon, starting about 30 seconds after initial start. I could hear a noise while revving it to probably 2k, and also at idle. Towards the end of the clip at idle, you can hear a faster repeating/sometimes inconsistent rattle and a more faint slower-repeating knock sort of sound.

Now, I know you might be thinking...VICS (and I'm not necessarily sure that it is NOT VICS), but the noise persists when the car is warm, just less audibly. I actually unplugged both the white and green plugs to the solenoids under the stabilizer bar, and while the engine seems to run more smoothly when cold, the noise was there either way. The audio was taken with them unplugged. (I'm not sure if unplugging disables VICS or not but I would assume so, as it also triggers a CEL and I can hear the noise of the actuator moving things.)

I had a mechanic listen to the car and he quickly recognized the noise. He told me it was not rod knock, but he was unable to figure out where it was coming from, and essentially told me to keep driving it and see if it gets worse.

Background/my ideas:
170k miles, original engine, burns some oil (maybe 2 quarts MAX between changes).
Oil/filter always changed at 2500-3700 miles with 5W-30 for the last 27k of my ownership.
I let it warm up for 30-60 seconds before driving and don't rev past 3k until warm.
Oil was barely below full when the noise started. Topped off to be safe.
Compression has not been checked. Oil has not yet been drained to check for metal, but I plan to do that soon.
Valve clearances probably have never been checked or adjusted.
Knock sensor is leaking it's goo, and while I have a new one on order, I don't expect it to fix or be even related to the problem (I've just been needing to replace it for a while now.
I am going to try to do an oil analysis to see if that reveals the problem.
I may also try to run the engine without accessory belts for a moment to see if those things are causing the noise.

Your comments and feedback are greatly appreciated. If nothing else, this can serve as an idea for others on what to expect with an engine failure, if that is what I am dealing with. I will make sure to update.

I did check the spark plugs but didn't find anything amiss. They were all tight. Just black and dirty as always, probably because of burning oil.
I did see somewhere that a person had one spark plug with the electrode wore out/touching and a misfire would jump from one cylinder to the next one and so on... the PCM didn't throw a code.

One thing I would suggest is take a look at your spark plug wires (if you already didn't try it).
At night/ or with the engine bay extremely dark, start the engine and increase the throttle by hand and see if you can see any sparks leaking through the spark plug wire insulation to nearby metal indicating your spark plug wire(s) are bad.

Also look inside the distributer cap and see if there are any scratches/carbon tracing that could lead to misfiring.

This may be a helpful article > Most Common Causes of Intermittent Misfire Codes
 
Last edited:
I did see somewhere that a person had one spark plug with the electrode wore out/touching and a misfire would jump from one cylinder to the next one and so on... the PCM didn't throw a code.

One thing I would suggest is take a look at your spark plug wires (if you already didn't try it).
At night/ or with the engine bay extremely dark, start the engine and increase the throttle by hand and see if you can see any sparks leaking through the spark plug wire insulation to nearby metal indicating your spark plug wire(s) are bad.

Also look inside the distributer cap and see if there are any scratches/carbon tracing that could lead to misfiring.

This may be a helpful article > Most Common Causes of Intermittent Misfire Codes
Thanks for the ideas!

I've been listening to the engine with the hood open quite often, and usually at night. Haven't seen any signs of sparking from the wires. The engine runs smoothly, especially when warm. It just doesn't sound amazing. So not sure if the problem is a misfire.

Also, my car does not have a distributer. I believe it's coil on plug, (is that the right term)? I don't believe any of the 02-03 USDM Proteges have them. I know some of the older Proteges do though.

I definitely appreciate the suggestions from everyone. Thanks!
 
Alright, so I started my P5 today for the first time in a few days (thanks covid). I made a few telling observations.
  1. The car cranked slower than normal. I have noticed it getting very slightly slower over the last week or so but I could definitely tell this time. (No reason to believe it's coincidentally a battery/alternator issue.)
  2. No bad noises on startup, but it was running rough and shaking the car for about 10 seconds before gradually clearing up after about 30.
  3. After driving for a little while, I checked the oil after shutting the car off and while the level was obviously inaccurate due to the engine having been just running, I could see a few very small silver sparklies on my rag.
Alas, this seems pretty conclusive.
 
My car didn't crank over at all last week, but it was -10°C.

I had to charge the battery for half an hour.


One of these should help keep your metal bits from circulating through your engine...


Screenshot_20220131-181007_eBay.jpg
 
Back