Clinton or Obama

[BOOSTR]

The people that believe the content of those emails as truth were not going to support Obama to begin with. Same goes for the people that seek to draw conclusions about his church and similar issues. Reminds me of the Willie Horton tactic from years back. It works to some extent to smear your opponent by inference.

 

[SeR_Cyclops]

yeah i get the idea but i was talking about how i was called a racist when i am clearly not. but yes i understand what you are saying. but still i thank you for trying to explain and not going crazy lol

 

[Donas64]

The people that believe the content of those emails as truth were not going to support Obama to begin with. Same goes for the people that seek to draw conclusions about his church and similar issues. Reminds me of the Willie Horton tactic from years back. It works to some extent to smear your opponent by inference.

you mean conclusions that are taken directly from his churches website?

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Look man I'm a Christian, I'm an Immigrant and I'm from Africa. I am also 24 years old so I'm part of this young generation that is so popular with Obama. As I've stated before, on the surface, I like the guy. But one's place of worship can tell you a lot about them. I would never go to a church that practices segregation or alienation of anyone based on race or anything else. Yes that includes homosexuality. I would not go to a church that condoned it but I would also not go to a church that barred or discouraged homosexuals from attending.

I say all that to say this:

Obamas Church subscribes to a black values system that at its roots preys on mistakes and bad judgement and injustices of times past and seems at best exclusionary and at worst downright hostile to America and to people who are not black.

I would not feel welcome there despite being from Africa.

For a candidate who's ENTIRE campaign is about change and moving forward and healing old wounds and bringing America together, you bet your behind that his place of worship strikes me as totally out of vibe with what his public message is.

So just because you might be so enamored with him that you dismiss ANY scrutiny of him as smear tactics, doesn't mean the scrutiny is not well deserved.

 

[BOOSTR]

Donas, I'm not even referring to you at all. I'm talking about eligible registered voters that may be susceptible to such tactics of smear. It works quite well with those voters, as has been proven time after time.

 

[Donas64]

Donas, I'm not even referring to you at all. I'm talking about eligible registered voters that may be susceptible to such tactics of smear. It works quite well with those voters, as has been proven time after time.

ok. understood.

 

[BOOSTR]

And for what its worth I went to that website earlier to see what all of the fuss was about with the church and pastor. I certainly understand questions being asked but to make it out that Obama is in lockstep with the pastor is a leap I'm not willing to make.

 

[SuperStretch18]

Wow, this got out of control pretty quick. I guess it is good that we are all this passionate on the subject! LOL! My vote is for Obama; will not go to Clinton (not even with Obama as a running mate).

I won't dive into anyone's side comments, but a couple of things I want to add to the collective conversation:

- Comparing oil prices in America to other countries is a moot point. We refine oil domestically, so we have much more control over costs than, say, the UK, that imports gasoline/deisel directly. The fact that we are approaching $4/gallon is significant.
- Tax cuts are just one tool that government uses to aid the economy. In reality though, it is disputable whether they actually have an impact in a situation like ours where we are at nearly full employment. Read up on Supply side/Keynesian economics if you want the full picture.
- So far, no one has mentioned the Pentagon/AirBus deal, which would have meant thousands of jobs (I think someone mentioned 44,000 new jobs) if it would have gone to Boeing instead. That is the type of government spending that is good for our economy and can spur growth.
- The exchange rate for the US dollar is pathetic right now, due in large part to the war and the need to borrow large sums of money from countries like China, Japan and India to fund it. This is having the largest impact on pricing on all foreign products than any other variable. Spur value growth in the US dollar and it is like you give the majority of America a raise.

Just some food for thought. I'll stay out of the rest of this muckety-muck...

 

[Donas64]

And for what its worth I went to that website earlier to see what all of the fuss was about with the church and pastor. I certainly understand questions being asked but to make it out that Obama is in lockstep with the pastor is a leap I'm not willing to make.

Dude, its the mission statement of the church. My wife and I when we were new in town attended a church and when we found out something in their mission statement we didn't agree with, we left and found our current church which is a great congregation. This stuff isn't hidden somewhere in the records. This is front and center what they believe. I'd like someone to ask him if he does believe and agree with all that stuff. I'd be very interested in hearing his answer.

 

[leetpcguy]

Ron Paul, that is all.

 

[Donas64]

Wow, this got out of control pretty quick. I guess it is good that we are all this passionate on the subject! LOL! My vote is for Obama; will not go to Clinton (not even with Obama as a running mate).

I won't dive into anyone's side comments, but a couple of things I want to add to the collective conversation:

- Comparing oil prices in America to other countries is a moot point. We refine oil domestically, so we have much more control over costs than, say, the UK, that imports gasoline/deisel directly. The fact that we are approaching $4/gallon is significant.
- Tax cuts are just one tool that government uses to aid the economy. In reality though, it is disputable whether they actually have an impact in a situation like ours where we are at nearly full employment. Read up on Supply side/Keynesian economics if you want the full picture.
- So far, no one has mentioned the Pentagon/AirBus deal, which would have meant thousands of jobs (I think someone mentioned 44,000 new jobs) if it would have gone to Boeing instead. That is the type of government spending that is good for our economy and can spur growth.
- The exchange rate for the US dollar is pathetic right now, due in large part to the war and the need to borrow large sums of money from countries like China, Japan and India to fund it. This is having the largest impact on pricing on all foreign products than any other variable. Spur value growth in the US dollar and it is like you give the majority of America a raise.

Just some food for thought. I'll stay out of the rest of this muckety-muck...

good points. can't really find fault with anything you said. If I may ask, what is it about Hillary that turns you off so much to her?

 

[BOOSTR]

I see it as possible to attend a church with a leader who some may say is controversial yet not be mirror image of the pastor or in 100% agreement with his message.

You've mentioned Jerry Falwell and he certainly said somethings over the years which raised a few eyebrows. Inspite of all of that I would not make the leap that you are in 100% agreement with him because of your alma matter and its link to him.

 

[SilverBulletES]

Larry David on Hillary
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-david/on-the-red-phone_b_90338.html

LOL

 

[Donas64]

I see it as possible to attend a church with a leader who some may say is controversial yet not be mirror image of the pastor or in 100% agreement with his message.

You've mentioned Jerry Falwell and he certainly said somethings over the years which raised a few eyebrows. Inspite of all of that I would not make the leap that you are in 100% agreement with him because of your alma matter and its link to him.

Yes Jerry Falwell has said some crazy stuff in the past and was in fact a racist and segregationist back in the day. There was also a time my my alma mater considered interracial dating a gray area but my wife and I met there and eventually married. But all that is in the past and Falwell was able to break free of his racist upbringing and learn to embrace (if not agree with) most everyone. Obviously I am not going to agree with everything he said but I would have never attended Liberty University if its mission statement was an adherence to the "white values system" or "advocating for white Christian superiority". Get my drift. If my alma mater held such beliefs, I would have never attended there. Obamas church still holds these beliefs.

I'm not saying Obama would agree with everything his Pastor says. After all who agrees with everything anyone says. I'm saying that the basic tenets of his church that he has chosen to attend go against almost everything his campaign stands for. And it makes no sense to me. At least acknowledge that much.

Thats like me saying I love apple pie and its the best desert ever while also sponsoring a bill that would make it illegal to bake apple pies. It just makes no sense.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care what his church says. I don't worship there. But I'm really interested in knowing how he reconciles his campaign rhetoric with a place that teaches what his church does.

 

[Killer]

man if i dont want to vote for someone that is my opinion i mean i can vote on any facts i want and a I AM NOT RACIST i have many hispanic and muslim friends but i just do not think obama would make a good president but man i mean im not here to make you all change your minds its none of my business but i am just voicing my opinion. it might have came across wrong because on the internet its hard to show proper emotions with just a few letters with out hearing the tone of voice and expressions on my face.

Ever heard of PUNCTUATION?

 

[Killer]

Ron Paul, that is all.

Keep dreamin'..it'll NEVER happen.

 

[SuperStretch18]

good points. can't really find fault with anything you said. If I may ask, what is it about Hillary that turns you off so much to her?

#1 - She has zero integrity. It is very hard to follow someone who will lie at any cost to further their cause.
#2 - I see health care as a major issue, but I'm not convinced that state run healthcare is really the best answer. The differences between her plan and Obama's are subtle, but not mandating that people buy into the government's plan is an important one. It would still allow for competition from the private sector, as long as the insurance companies could get their act together.
#3 - The Clintons are idealogically tied to "old washington". I find it hard to believe that they will be able to distance themselves from lobbyists and the partisan politics that have become the norm.
#4 - Talking with countries like Iran, Cuba, N. Korea, etc., is not in of itself a bad thing, assuming that there is proper ground work done to ensure that the other parties are open to discussion of key issues. IMO, you keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Discussions at that level indicate a level of commitment that has been absent from foreign policy. I am not suggesting that we bend over backwards to appease any country and neither is Obama.

I can keep going on why I like Obama, but these are the main one's swaying my decision away from Shilary. I honestly could have stopped at #1...

 

[Donas64]

#1 - She has zero integrity. It is very hard to follow someone who will lie at any cost to further their cause.
#2 - I see health care as a major issue, but I'm not convinced that state run healthcare is really the best answer. The differences between her plan and Obama's are subtle, but not mandating that people buy into the government's plan is an important one. It would still allow for competition from the private sector, as long as the insurance companies could get their act together.
#3 - The Clintons are idealogically tied to "old washington". I find it hard to believe that they will be able to distance themselves from lobbyists and the partisan politics that have become the norm.
#4 - Talking with countries like Iran, Cuba, N. Korea, etc., is not in of itself a bad thing, assuming that there is proper ground work done to ensure that the other parties are open to discussion of key issues. IMO, you keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Discussions at that level indicate a level of commitment that has been absent from foreign policy. I am not suggesting that we bend over backwards to appease any country and neither is Obama.

I can keep going on why I like Obama, but these are the main one's swaying my decision away from Shilary. I honestly could have stopped at #1...

See even though I'm a conservative, I can see eye to eye with you on this because at least you're intellectually honest. While overall Hillary and Obama don't differ that much on policy, he is by far the more appealing candidate even to someone like me who would not really vote for either.

Still, Obama does have several things about him that irk me. He's much more palatable than billary though.

 

[SuperStretch18]

See even though I'm a conservative, I can see eye to eye with you on this because at least you're intellectually honest. While overall Hillary and Obama don't differ that much on policy, he is by far the more appealing candidate even to someone like me who would not really vote for either.

Still, Obama does have several things about him that irk me. He's much more palatable than billary though.

Thanks Donas. I agree that the big government mentality is a strike against all dems in general, but IMO the positives outweigh the negatives.

See, we can talk about issues without jumping down each other's throats. (sssh) I've said it before; although we have different ways of getting there, we do have the country's best interests in mind.

Too bad you'll miss this election cycle; it's going to be a fight to the end. (fight)

 

[BOOSTR]

While it is a great jabbing sound bite, the facts show that the “tax and spend” rhetoric Republicans often spew about Democrats is not as bad as it sounds. Taxing before spending actually reflects good government. The facts also show that it most often takes a Democratic President to control and reduce spending. The truth is that the Republicans are the party of “borrow and spend”. They hate taxes, but love to spend; their solution is to put off paying till later for our security today. They prefer to see our children pay for their debt. Neo-Conservative thinking has run up a huge debt that will not be paid off for a generation or more, and is still increasing at an astounding rate with no end to deficit spending in sight. Pres. Bush is constantly claiming that the economy is great! What he leaves out is that he is buying that simulated good economy with his borrowed dollars; it is a false economy that could very well crash the minute the borrowing stops.

Time for change. Fiscal responsibility and a reality check are needed. Thomas Jefferson said it best, "I place economy among the first and most important republican virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt."

 

[Killer]

While it is a great jabbing sound bite, the facts show that the tax and spend rhetoric Republicans often spew about Democrats is not as bad as it sounds. Taxing before spending actually reflects good government. The facts also show that it most often takes a Democratic President to control and reduce spending. The truth is that the Republicans are the party of borrow and spend. They hate taxes, but love to spend; their solution is to put off paying till later for our security today. They prefer to see our children pay for their debt. Neo-Conservative thinking has run up a huge debt that will not be paid off for a generation or more, and is still increasing at an astounding rate with no end to deficit spending in sight. Pres. Bush is constantly claiming that the economy is great! What he leaves out is that he is buying that simulated good economy with his borrowed dollars; it is a false economy that could very well crash the minute the borrowing stops.

Time for change. Fiscal responsibility and a reality check are needed. Thomas Jefferson said it best, "I place economy among the first and most important republican virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt."

(werd) Excellent post.