OK, so I bought a New-In-Box (NIB) set of KW-V3's to add to my already altered with Hotchkis sway bar set (F+R) '09 MS3. Hotchkis bars have been on for about 6 months and have given the MS3 a great new feel, less bump-steer, and better cornering. Rear bar is on the "softer" of the two settings, ie. the "outside" holes toward the end. Next addition was the KW-V3 (adjustable compression and rebound) that just happened to drop into my lap from a local Norcal guy who lives near me and got them but never used them. Been riding on recommended settings for about 500 miles now. Feeling real nice about the set up. So, here are the impressions and other tidbits to note:
- Installed professionally. For Bay Area Norcal folks, you can't go wrong with Sonic Motorsports in Mt. View (Sonic MS). They do some really high end cars and the place was riddled with M5's, MBZ AMG's from all the Google employees nearby.... Not to mention that they themselves tool around in an '04 Lamborghini and Porsche Turbo Carrera. So, an MS3 to them is just a toy. But, they know their stuff when it comes to suspensions, tradeoffs, and settings/installations.
First off, they didn't need to cut, drill, or do any mods to anything to get the KW's in. Was a 2 hour job for the most part. But, since I had an aftermarket swaybar on the front, the stock endlinks were too long, mostly due to the drop the KW's give, even at the highest setting. So, being BMW folks, they tossed in some M3 front endlinks which happen to fit perfectly. For $40 for two M3 endlinks, these guys just toss them into corners as junk when they upgrade M3s and M5's. So, hell yes, I paid the $40 for their "junk". the M3 endlinks are about 1" shorter than the stock MS3 endlinks, FYI.
Now onto settings:
1. Rebound and compression - recommended settings by KW.
2. Drop - 1 inch
3. Hotchkis sways F+R with M3 front endlinks
Impressions: (500 miles, no alignment done yet, just breaking them in)
1. Cornering - MUCH improved, very flat at all speeds. Highway transitions are exceptional when moving lane-to-lane. You can tell KW's were meant for moves at-speed. Hardly have to even move the steering wheel and BAM, lane change completed. No swerve, always hooked to the pavement. Good driver feedback.
2. Torque Steer - Reduced about 60 - 65%. These KW's are stupendous for getting rid of torque steer. I have them on my SRT4 and they did the same thing. No more flying around like a whip when you jam on the go pedal. Much more innate control when launching or accelerating from a slow start. Launch "squat" nearly eliminated... shoots straight out of the hole without front end lift, and rearward compression that previously occurred on the stockers, followed by a settle-back to flat.
3. Side benefit - The pesky low-speed clutch engagement grab and jumpiness that is present in the stock MS3 clutch combined with stock MS3 suspension appears to be greatly reduced, if not totally gone. Clutch modulation was always a pain in the butt from a standing start, even after I got used to the grabbiness of the stock clutch. Apparently, part of that grabbiness/jumpiness was the ability of the stock suspension's to actually modulate the sudden grab/thrust from the clutch and transfer it to forward movement without making the body bounce a bit in the process. The stock suspension doesn't quite give that balanced forward movement at low RPMs even when you feather the clutch. It always had a bit of body jump unless you are at the sweet-spot of RPM and clutch. Well, the KW's took care of THAT little pecadillo. Clutch engagement, even when done "improperly" is much more smooth, with some leeway as to whether you feather it, drop it, or get the "sweet spot". I be much liking that if you are stuck in stop-n-go traffic where you are constantly stopping, starting, and virtually never get out of first gear.
4. Noise - OK, here, the KW's have a sore point. The stockers were more quiet over bumps, transitions, and especially quick "drops" like in pot-holes or recessions in the concrete. The stockers would "jar" you more during those transitions, but would be not as noisey. Road noise transmission into the cabin is a bit more pronounced with the KW's. Where the KW's are REALLY much more noisy than stock is on fast/hard/big drops at speed. Hitting a large pothole or recession (a large hole, not an undulation in the road) would have the suspension immediately "drop hard" to keep the wheels on the road. This "hard drop" would make noise on the KWs whereas the stockers would not.... BUT, to counterbalance the noise factor, the KW's don't "shock your body" like the stockers would in this situation. When you surprisingly hit a large, short drop in the road, you would "hear" the KW's responding but not "feel" it. With the stockers, you would "feel" it, but not "hear" it..... if that makes sense. So, if you learn to ignore the noise of the wheels dropping and pay attention to the fact that your body is staying put and car is still tracking straight... well, THAT's the idea with good coilovers.
5. Comfort - WAY better than stock. Fast "road quality" transitions, sweeping curves, quick sharp turns on a bad road are all much improved. The front wheels stay on the ground and move the car the direction it's being steered, with no sideways jumps.... albeit with the noise mentioned in #4 above.
6. Other impressions - The KW's love to "drop-fast". That's where I think the noise comes from. Even on a test over a parking lot speed bump, I noticed that the KW's drop the wheel quickly to the ground after rolling more than 50 percent over the peak (descending side) of the speed bump much more than the stockers. It's that "fast-drop" (at least on the recommended KW settings for rebound/compression) that I believe to comprise that "noise factor" in #4, above. When hitting speed bumps on the "ascending" side, the KW's handle the transition with minimized passenger jarring, again, albeit with some noise. You tend to get no human-passenger-body side-to-side jostling like in the stock MS3 suspension as you rise up-n-over the speed bump. So, it appears to be absorbing the ascending bump-shock quickly, sending minimal jostling/comfort disturbing motion to the passengers, and substituting suspension movement noise and wheel-hitting-pavement noise quickly in place of that cabin movement you get with the stockers.
All-in-all, they are keepers. Will get alignment done in a couple hundred more miles and may adjust ride height at most 1/2" lower after I figure out my tire future. Will keep the "recommended" KW settings for street driving since I don't plan to be at the track much, if at all.
****************************************************** UPDATE 11/23 ****************************************************
1000 mile update:
OK, time for the alignment. The springs, after the break-in period have settled and they indeed are more harsh. Noticeably more harsh. Perhaps that's why some folks are having trouble adjusting them at first, and go for different settings, all to no avail. After springs have broken in (and apparently compressed under vehicle loads), you will FEEL the suspension more, and HEAR the suspension more, with both compression/rebound/ride-height kept exactly the same. So, make SURE to break the KW's in before doing any modifications to settings. After not particularly enjoying the new harshness (nor my family), I went back for my scheduled alignment at Sonic Motorsports. I asked them to dial in more softness by 2 clicks and align, and leave the drop at 1 inch.
After getting it back, it's now MUCH better for daily driving. No squat or dive, corners well at speed, and bad roads no longer make your teeth rattle. And the suspension noise on bumps and dips is now significantly better as well, pretty much on-par with the sounds you hear coming from the stock suspension. So, it appears that after the break-in period, for daily driving, go about 2 clicks softer on the adjustable settings (for both compression and rebound, I am assuming since I didn't specify to the suspension shop).
************************************************ UPDATE 11/24 , testing ************************************************** *****
OK, after the 2 click softness alteration, the ride is much improved. But, as expected, the "hard" cornering ability is a bit compromised. Hey, everything is a trade off. Moderate cornering has maintained great stability. But, if I downshift, speed up, and hit a hard right corner, the car definitely leans a bit more and doesn't negotiated the corner quite as well when on the stiffer (recommended) settings. But, all-in-all, it's still a good trade off. One positive side is that the car is more stable on hard-bumpy-cornering though after the 2 click softening. I took another turn that had some depressions mid-corner. Normally, on the recommended settings hitting this corner hard and hitting the depressions would make the car jump sideways and lose a bit of control. With the softer settings, the car didn't lose traction as much when hitting the mid-corner depressions. And the noise is still significantly reduced as well. So, for flat good-road cornering, it's a compromise... but for scary "real world" driving where you don't know what condition a road might be in, this is the settings I'm leaving it at for safety sake. Also leaving the drop "as-is" at 1 inch. That extra 0.5 inch of drop may just be too much for the needed daily driving suspension travel and my future wider tire choice to come.
************************************************** UPDATE 12/16 - Cold weather harshness
COLD WEATHER TESTING: Been leaving the car out at night recently during a California cold snap, 32 degree nights are considered "frigid" around here.
Call my sphincter muscle overly sensitive or not, but, when these KWs are cold and the hydraulic fluid hasn't reached operating temperature, I swear to the almighty that for the first 5-7 minutes of driving over the same bumps at the same speeds are noticeably different. There seems to be a noticeable harshness / stiffness that feels as if the settings are about one click harder when the coilovers are cold. After about 5-7 minutes, it softens up and feels more normal and more of a daily driver. Not sure if it really is due to the exercising of the hydraulics in the struts, but it sure feels "different" at cold start time. To prove my theory, I went over some bumpy areas right out of my driveway, then went up an expressway. Coming back to those same bumps after my expressway jaunt (5 minutes of minor bumps, some turns, lights, and corners) and approaching those same initial bumps at the exact same speed and angle of attack..... go over them..... wow, feels softer than the first time I hit them when the struts were cold....... Like I said, maybe my sphincter muscle is overly well tuned, but I swear there's a 5 minute break-in on cold days.
************************************************** UPDATE 12/23 - Brake dive and launch squat test
After the warm up to remove the initial harshness (possibly from the purported low-oil design that another member mentioned, but not confirmed) I took the MS3 for some hard braking and some moderate quick launches (as fast as possible without inducing wheelspin) just to see how the KW's handle the quick weight transfer-forward (brake dive) and transfer-backward (launch squat). Brake dive is practically non-existent even on my daily driver "softer" settings. So, if you like it tighter/harsher, brake dive appears to be a non-issue. Even the Mustang GT 5.0 that I tested (non-Brembo brake package) had brake dive on hard stops. So, score one for the KWs there. I don't have my old suspension on to compare, but it sure feels better than stock on the hard-braking issue.
For non-wheel-spin launches, same pretty much holds true. Barely discernably launch squat when the weight transfers from front to rear. This sure helps hold down the front tires so that they actually do move the car forward faster.... and get more wheel spin through bad clutch-work versus poor weight transfer lifting the front wheels up. But, that's a good sign since it will be giving more traction and keeps the weight on the front wheels much moreso than stock suspension.
*************************************** Update 1/26/11 EMERGENCY steering update
OK, they passed the test here..... I was driving "beyond my headlights" at night, about 80-85 mph on a wide multi-lane road, starting into a sweeping curve....... when headlights caught what appeared to be a tire in my lane..... After the short "Holy s***!" that runs through your mind, my only alternative was to very quickly steer around the tire. My snapping right movement into the other lane got handled with the utmost of control, no tire squeal or adverse suspension compression, lean or whatnot. I give 2 thumbs up for "emergency turns" which would translate into nice flat handling at the track no doubt. The only casualty was the need to change underwear upon reaching home.... at a slower speed.
************************************************** **********************
- Installed professionally. For Bay Area Norcal folks, you can't go wrong with Sonic Motorsports in Mt. View (Sonic MS). They do some really high end cars and the place was riddled with M5's, MBZ AMG's from all the Google employees nearby.... Not to mention that they themselves tool around in an '04 Lamborghini and Porsche Turbo Carrera. So, an MS3 to them is just a toy. But, they know their stuff when it comes to suspensions, tradeoffs, and settings/installations.
First off, they didn't need to cut, drill, or do any mods to anything to get the KW's in. Was a 2 hour job for the most part. But, since I had an aftermarket swaybar on the front, the stock endlinks were too long, mostly due to the drop the KW's give, even at the highest setting. So, being BMW folks, they tossed in some M3 front endlinks which happen to fit perfectly. For $40 for two M3 endlinks, these guys just toss them into corners as junk when they upgrade M3s and M5's. So, hell yes, I paid the $40 for their "junk". the M3 endlinks are about 1" shorter than the stock MS3 endlinks, FYI.
Now onto settings:
1. Rebound and compression - recommended settings by KW.
2. Drop - 1 inch
3. Hotchkis sways F+R with M3 front endlinks
Impressions: (500 miles, no alignment done yet, just breaking them in)
1. Cornering - MUCH improved, very flat at all speeds. Highway transitions are exceptional when moving lane-to-lane. You can tell KW's were meant for moves at-speed. Hardly have to even move the steering wheel and BAM, lane change completed. No swerve, always hooked to the pavement. Good driver feedback.
2. Torque Steer - Reduced about 60 - 65%. These KW's are stupendous for getting rid of torque steer. I have them on my SRT4 and they did the same thing. No more flying around like a whip when you jam on the go pedal. Much more innate control when launching or accelerating from a slow start. Launch "squat" nearly eliminated... shoots straight out of the hole without front end lift, and rearward compression that previously occurred on the stockers, followed by a settle-back to flat.
3. Side benefit - The pesky low-speed clutch engagement grab and jumpiness that is present in the stock MS3 clutch combined with stock MS3 suspension appears to be greatly reduced, if not totally gone. Clutch modulation was always a pain in the butt from a standing start, even after I got used to the grabbiness of the stock clutch. Apparently, part of that grabbiness/jumpiness was the ability of the stock suspension's to actually modulate the sudden grab/thrust from the clutch and transfer it to forward movement without making the body bounce a bit in the process. The stock suspension doesn't quite give that balanced forward movement at low RPMs even when you feather the clutch. It always had a bit of body jump unless you are at the sweet-spot of RPM and clutch. Well, the KW's took care of THAT little pecadillo. Clutch engagement, even when done "improperly" is much more smooth, with some leeway as to whether you feather it, drop it, or get the "sweet spot". I be much liking that if you are stuck in stop-n-go traffic where you are constantly stopping, starting, and virtually never get out of first gear.
4. Noise - OK, here, the KW's have a sore point. The stockers were more quiet over bumps, transitions, and especially quick "drops" like in pot-holes or recessions in the concrete. The stockers would "jar" you more during those transitions, but would be not as noisey. Road noise transmission into the cabin is a bit more pronounced with the KW's. Where the KW's are REALLY much more noisy than stock is on fast/hard/big drops at speed. Hitting a large pothole or recession (a large hole, not an undulation in the road) would have the suspension immediately "drop hard" to keep the wheels on the road. This "hard drop" would make noise on the KWs whereas the stockers would not.... BUT, to counterbalance the noise factor, the KW's don't "shock your body" like the stockers would in this situation. When you surprisingly hit a large, short drop in the road, you would "hear" the KW's responding but not "feel" it. With the stockers, you would "feel" it, but not "hear" it..... if that makes sense. So, if you learn to ignore the noise of the wheels dropping and pay attention to the fact that your body is staying put and car is still tracking straight... well, THAT's the idea with good coilovers.
5. Comfort - WAY better than stock. Fast "road quality" transitions, sweeping curves, quick sharp turns on a bad road are all much improved. The front wheels stay on the ground and move the car the direction it's being steered, with no sideways jumps.... albeit with the noise mentioned in #4 above.
6. Other impressions - The KW's love to "drop-fast". That's where I think the noise comes from. Even on a test over a parking lot speed bump, I noticed that the KW's drop the wheel quickly to the ground after rolling more than 50 percent over the peak (descending side) of the speed bump much more than the stockers. It's that "fast-drop" (at least on the recommended KW settings for rebound/compression) that I believe to comprise that "noise factor" in #4, above. When hitting speed bumps on the "ascending" side, the KW's handle the transition with minimized passenger jarring, again, albeit with some noise. You tend to get no human-passenger-body side-to-side jostling like in the stock MS3 suspension as you rise up-n-over the speed bump. So, it appears to be absorbing the ascending bump-shock quickly, sending minimal jostling/comfort disturbing motion to the passengers, and substituting suspension movement noise and wheel-hitting-pavement noise quickly in place of that cabin movement you get with the stockers.
All-in-all, they are keepers. Will get alignment done in a couple hundred more miles and may adjust ride height at most 1/2" lower after I figure out my tire future. Will keep the "recommended" KW settings for street driving since I don't plan to be at the track much, if at all.
****************************************************** UPDATE 11/23 ****************************************************
1000 mile update:
OK, time for the alignment. The springs, after the break-in period have settled and they indeed are more harsh. Noticeably more harsh. Perhaps that's why some folks are having trouble adjusting them at first, and go for different settings, all to no avail. After springs have broken in (and apparently compressed under vehicle loads), you will FEEL the suspension more, and HEAR the suspension more, with both compression/rebound/ride-height kept exactly the same. So, make SURE to break the KW's in before doing any modifications to settings. After not particularly enjoying the new harshness (nor my family), I went back for my scheduled alignment at Sonic Motorsports. I asked them to dial in more softness by 2 clicks and align, and leave the drop at 1 inch.
After getting it back, it's now MUCH better for daily driving. No squat or dive, corners well at speed, and bad roads no longer make your teeth rattle. And the suspension noise on bumps and dips is now significantly better as well, pretty much on-par with the sounds you hear coming from the stock suspension. So, it appears that after the break-in period, for daily driving, go about 2 clicks softer on the adjustable settings (for both compression and rebound, I am assuming since I didn't specify to the suspension shop).
************************************************ UPDATE 11/24 , testing ************************************************** *****
OK, after the 2 click softness alteration, the ride is much improved. But, as expected, the "hard" cornering ability is a bit compromised. Hey, everything is a trade off. Moderate cornering has maintained great stability. But, if I downshift, speed up, and hit a hard right corner, the car definitely leans a bit more and doesn't negotiated the corner quite as well when on the stiffer (recommended) settings. But, all-in-all, it's still a good trade off. One positive side is that the car is more stable on hard-bumpy-cornering though after the 2 click softening. I took another turn that had some depressions mid-corner. Normally, on the recommended settings hitting this corner hard and hitting the depressions would make the car jump sideways and lose a bit of control. With the softer settings, the car didn't lose traction as much when hitting the mid-corner depressions. And the noise is still significantly reduced as well. So, for flat good-road cornering, it's a compromise... but for scary "real world" driving where you don't know what condition a road might be in, this is the settings I'm leaving it at for safety sake. Also leaving the drop "as-is" at 1 inch. That extra 0.5 inch of drop may just be too much for the needed daily driving suspension travel and my future wider tire choice to come.
************************************************** UPDATE 12/16 - Cold weather harshness
COLD WEATHER TESTING: Been leaving the car out at night recently during a California cold snap, 32 degree nights are considered "frigid" around here.
Call my sphincter muscle overly sensitive or not, but, when these KWs are cold and the hydraulic fluid hasn't reached operating temperature, I swear to the almighty that for the first 5-7 minutes of driving over the same bumps at the same speeds are noticeably different. There seems to be a noticeable harshness / stiffness that feels as if the settings are about one click harder when the coilovers are cold. After about 5-7 minutes, it softens up and feels more normal and more of a daily driver. Not sure if it really is due to the exercising of the hydraulics in the struts, but it sure feels "different" at cold start time. To prove my theory, I went over some bumpy areas right out of my driveway, then went up an expressway. Coming back to those same bumps after my expressway jaunt (5 minutes of minor bumps, some turns, lights, and corners) and approaching those same initial bumps at the exact same speed and angle of attack..... go over them..... wow, feels softer than the first time I hit them when the struts were cold....... Like I said, maybe my sphincter muscle is overly well tuned, but I swear there's a 5 minute break-in on cold days.
************************************************** UPDATE 12/23 - Brake dive and launch squat test
After the warm up to remove the initial harshness (possibly from the purported low-oil design that another member mentioned, but not confirmed) I took the MS3 for some hard braking and some moderate quick launches (as fast as possible without inducing wheelspin) just to see how the KW's handle the quick weight transfer-forward (brake dive) and transfer-backward (launch squat). Brake dive is practically non-existent even on my daily driver "softer" settings. So, if you like it tighter/harsher, brake dive appears to be a non-issue. Even the Mustang GT 5.0 that I tested (non-Brembo brake package) had brake dive on hard stops. So, score one for the KWs there. I don't have my old suspension on to compare, but it sure feels better than stock on the hard-braking issue.
For non-wheel-spin launches, same pretty much holds true. Barely discernably launch squat when the weight transfers from front to rear. This sure helps hold down the front tires so that they actually do move the car forward faster.... and get more wheel spin through bad clutch-work versus poor weight transfer lifting the front wheels up. But, that's a good sign since it will be giving more traction and keeps the weight on the front wheels much moreso than stock suspension.
*************************************** Update 1/26/11 EMERGENCY steering update
OK, they passed the test here..... I was driving "beyond my headlights" at night, about 80-85 mph on a wide multi-lane road, starting into a sweeping curve....... when headlights caught what appeared to be a tire in my lane..... After the short "Holy s***!" that runs through your mind, my only alternative was to very quickly steer around the tire. My snapping right movement into the other lane got handled with the utmost of control, no tire squeal or adverse suspension compression, lean or whatnot. I give 2 thumbs up for "emergency turns" which would translate into nice flat handling at the track no doubt. The only casualty was the need to change underwear upon reaching home.... at a slower speed.
************************************************** **********************
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