Built motor, t3 super 60, megasquirt.

[MPNick]

I am confused with one issue. I have heard(not sure of the source) that injectors should not be allowed to exceed 100% duty cycle, that they really won't work more than 80%. I have also heard that they shouldn't be allowed to run above 80% due to safety reasons (injector hanging open, running out of fuel, going lean, etc.).
-Mateo

You can run 95% on the dyno for WOT pulls. You can never exceed 100% duty cycle.

 

[Focus]

The guy you are talking about is Focus. If memory serves me right he made something like 296whp at 18psi and race gas running a stock manifold. He then switched to our manifold and made 325whp at 17psi and pump gas. When he would turn up the boost the car just wouldn't make anymore power. He was maxing out his MAF and he had a few other things holding him back.

Actually here is what I did 296WHP at 18psi was last year on pump gas. This year before I put in MAM manifold I made 321 WHP on a Dynojet. With the exact same tune I went back to the same dyno after installing the MAM manifold and I made 318 WHP, a loss of 3HP.

A lot of things have to be taken into consideration. It was not the same day, air temps might have been differerent, etc...

Beau, you are correct in saying that a lot of factors may be limiting, such as the MAF restriction and all. Now people, don't ghet this wrong, the MAM piece is a great manifold, seat of the pants dyno says so. Top end where it use to choke with the stock manifold, now pulls hard till redline.

So what are the gains with the MAM manifold, it yet has been proven. I will let you know this coming summer. A 80mm MAF is installed, and all other issues have been looked at.

 

[yellerandahalf]

thanks Focus, facts are really helpful in clearing that up. I would have expected much of the same from a difference in manifolds, with most gains noticed up high. Thanks a lot for your input. I'm either going to run the fuel pump supply directly from megasquirt to ensure that it's getting 12V+ with larger gauge wire, or reinstall the stocker. I think I'll try the stocker first, in attempt to get somethin goin.
-Mateo

 

[MPNick]

So what are the gains with the MAM manifold, it yet has been proven. I will let you know this coming summer. A 80mm MAF is installed, and all other issues have been looked at.

How much more would have been gained with the 80mm and the stock manifold? We do not know for sure. Yes I could see that maybe at the topend a header may make more power then a log, maybe. It comes down to have well the header is setup. But in this case where this guys is stuck very down in power the manifold just is not the problem. That was and is still my point here. Spending $900.00 on a header made by anyone is just the the smart thing to do. My guess is for most of the people on this forum a header would be a waste of money anyway. Most people are not going to outflow the log manifold.

 

[MPNick]

Nick,

Also we have a guy(robp5t) who was running a BEGI manifold, T3/T4,etc. All he did was switch out the manifold and this is what he got
Begi manifold-10psi,194 whp

Thumper manifold- 10psi 234 whp, 12psi 257 whp and that was at 10.5 a/r.

Big Tim has the same BEGI manifold. He made 228whp out here with 93 octane and 8psi. Even out there with s*** gas he made 208whp. My guess is something was wrong with his car and he fixed when the header was installed. He may not even have known that it fixed it.

 

[yellerandahalf]

update: I connected the power supply for the fuel pump to megasquirt, so I'm sure it's seeing 12V now. I'm reasonably certain that it sounds considerably louder as well, but I'm not sure. I went and datalogged with the standalone system, and found that the fuel pump is not the problem. I'm getting the same results as before. Same A/F ratio with the same duty cycle at the same RPM. Darnet! I'm posting up a screenshot of the datalog where you can see where I hit 80% duty cycle, and another where I hit 100%. For your reference, 207kpa is ~17psi, and 200 is about 16-16.5psi.

So that's not it. any other idea? BTW, i know 109% DC is not possible. It displays that as a tuning aid, it doesn't really go above 100%

-Mateo

 

[peepsalot]

I don't know if it would even run like this, but is it possible you have your megasquirt setup for peak and hold injectors instead of saturated?

 

[yellerandahalf]

naw, it's not doing that. It doesn't have the capability of doing that without a daughter board. good suggestion though.
I had another idea: perhaps VICS and VTCS aren't working properly, since the stock computer doesn't have all of its sensors. I'm gonna unplug them one by one and see what kind of change it makes.
-Mateo

 

[yellerandahalf]

tested VICS and VTCS. both are working properly; VICS closes at 5200 rpm. yet another problem that would have been simple to eliminate ruled out.
-Mateo

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

VICS should open at 5200.

 

[yellerandahalf]

VICS should open at 5200.

err, right. Well, it does something at 5200. it moves. whether it opens or closes, whatever. It's doing something. also, with the solenoid unplugged, I noticed very little if any power difference, so that's def not the problem.
-Mateo

 

[Spooled]

So you are maxing the injectors out in this situation:

440cc injectors
10.25 AFR
17 psi
5800 rpm

That's quite a bit of air and you are running pretty rich, so it must be injecting quite a bit of fuel. The best way to figure it out is with a compressor map for your T3 60 trim. Figure out the CFM you are pushing, and calculate how much fuel you need for your target AFR.

 

[yellerandahalf]

indeed. any idea where I might find equations to calculate that? Good call there. I checked with Beau at MAM, and he confirmed that I have about an 8:1 compression ratio, so I guess that's not it. Intercooler is not a problem, my friend is running the exact same intercooler and is pushing a lot more power out of a VW 2.0L, running megasquirt(tuned by me), and an otherwise extremely similar setup. He's maxing out his injectors as well though (550 cc's). He's got a rediculously rich(9:1 AFR) tune in there now though, so it kinda doesn't count.
WTF is going on?
-Mateo

 

[mazdaspeed75]

Cv

Is the ems causing your probs The megasquirt .

 

[MPNick]

That's quite a bit of air and you are running pretty rich, so it must be injecting quite a bit of fuel. The best way to figure it out is with a compressor map for your T3 60 trim. Figure out the CFM you are pushing, and calculate how much fuel you need for your target AFR.

I know you are trying to help here but.

What spec sheet is there to do this? What good is the comp map going to do? He is in no way flowing what the turbo can so the spec on the comp wheel does not help.
You would be better working with what we know. CFM X .7= hp. He made 166 whp, thats around 193 flywheel hp. That means that he is flowing around 276 cfm.

I do feel that things never have to be this hard. The bottom line you can take all of these formulas and throw them out. Because we all know that stock Protege injectors can make a minimun od 200whp. We are at 166whp. So you do not need to reinvent the wheel here. He has more then he needs for injectors to make over 300whp. The problem is not the size of injectors. Work the problem and keep it black and white, no gray areas need here.

Again, I know you mean well but lets keep things simple.

 

[yellerandahalf]

whoa whoa. I had no idea you thought we were at that power level. We're putting 240 to the wheels, not 166. The place where the cursor is is not the max power, it's just where the cursor happened to be. look on the bottom. 240whp>~290 crank. it's not THAT far off. Wow. that's definetly my bad. sorry!!
-Mateo

 

[MPNick]

whoa whoa. I had no idea you thought we were at that power level. We're putting 240 to the wheels, not 166. The place where the cursor is is not the max power, it's just where the cursor happened to be. look on the bottom. 240whp>~290 crank. it's not THAT far off. Wow. that's definetly my bad. sorry!!
-Mateo

Dumb on my part. I have 100s of runs on the Dyno-Jet. Should have looked better at the sheet.

Anyway. The WRXwith 440 have made over 300whp with stock fuel pressure. You need to install a fuel pressure gauge on the return side and see if the pressure is dropping. What type of 440s do you have?

 

[MPNick]

Thats about 400cfm. Your turbo is good for that for sure.

 

[MPNick]

whoa whoa. I had no idea you thought we were at that power level. We're putting 240 to the wheels, not 166. The place where the cursor is is not the max power, it's just where the cursor happened to be. look on the bottom. 240whp>~290 crank. it's not THAT far off. Wow. that's definetly my bad. sorry!!
-Mateo

OK I see you have the WRX units. You have lots of injector left.

What size is you IC core? What size pipe does it have? How about a photo of the setup?

 

[yellerandahalf]

IC core is not too big, but it's 3" thick, and makes a tactile difference (touch one side, it's hot, touch the other, it's icy). Cold side tubing is 2.5" stainless, and hot side is 2.5"DP to 3" cat, to 3" pipe, to 2.5" muffler (rear-exit). lots of pics of the setup are here.