Maybe after one year from now they will get experienced with this after doing so many cars and will be able to meet the 4.4 hours. Feedback from people who did this successfully will be a decisioning factor for many people as well.
2021 CX-9 Burning oil
- Thread starter jean-luc
- Start date
I agree with you that they will become faster at the repair with more repetition, because that's the way it works for most jobs. My opinion is based strictly on the sheer number of individual steps that will be required to complete the job, none of which can be skipped.
But I also have no problem saying that I could be wrong, and perhaps many of the techs can ultimately come close to doing this job in 4.4 hours, after the required number of reps takes place. And if not, I suppose this one is no different from flat-rate warranty work in general, which is (according to multiple tech postings) virtually always significantly underpaid by the automakers (all of them, not just Mazda).
The truly sad thing about this is that the valve seals are $0.60 each online. This repair is a $500+ job in labor to replace parts that are less than $5.
The dealers will let junior technicians do all the steps in that 50+ page repair procedure up to where the valve cover comes off to save money.
The dealers will let junior technicians do all the steps in that 50+ page repair procedure up to where the valve cover comes off to save money.
I have done this repair procedure on other engines. I haven't read this TSB but replacing the valve seals with the head still attached to the short block is not that big of a deal. The trick is just not letting the valve drop into the cylinder. You have to be detail minded but it's not rocket science. I have to commend Mazda for producing this repair. I didn't read the TSB like I said but is Mazda paying or is this on the owner. If my CX-9 fell in this Vin range I would definitely get this repaired done. Eating oil will just plug up your catalytic converter. The tech doesn't care less about that 4.4 hours. That's what the dealer will be getting paid for the job either by the customer or by mazda. Most Master techs will tell the shop foreman to pound sand if they don't like the time it takes to do a good job on an expensive piece of machinery. The techs going to get his hours paid whether it takes them 4 hours or 8 hours
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According to every report posted by techs that I've read, they get paid flat rate for warranty work, and only the number of hours specified by the automaker for a given warranty job. Based on what they write, this has been a sore point for techs, and the reason they don't do warranty work if they have any choice in the matter. Perhaps a few dealers choose to kick in the difference of actual hours worked versus book, but that's the only way they would get anything more than what the book says.
With all due respect this is irrelevant to this thread. I think the question is would you trust the dealership to do this work on your car? There are too many things that could go wrong with such a complex repair.
Unfortunately this fix will only happen at the dealership due to a independent shop wont want to buy the special tools. Looks like a solid fix though. I know the ones I have done I snake a lawnmower diameter size cord down the spark plug hole when the piston is down, then raise the piston, which compresses the cord against the valves before pulling the spring. This procedure says just go to TDC and let the piston be supported by the top of the piston. Interesting
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- Canada
It's not completely irrelevant IMO, because the tech doing the repair will likely be under pressure to complete it within the number of hours specified. This means that at least for the first few jobs, there is an increased risk from possible first-time attempts and pressure to get it done quickly vs. taking the time to get it right.
If an owner has the oil consumption issue, they will have to either bite the bullet and be one of the first to have the repair done, or they can live with the oil consumption for a year or two and then have the repair done by a tech with (hopefully) more experience. In any case, I'm happy to see that a fix is actually available, and the owner does still have the powertrain warranty to fall back on in the event that the repair causes damage or doesn't fix the problem.
If it were me... Which it is with my 21 CX-5, I would offer the dealer tech added compensation from my pocket to make sure they slow down and take the appropriate amount of time to do the job correctly and not be rushed to complete it under warranty labor flat rate time. There is a term for that but I cant recall it right now..... pay contribution or something like that.
I agree, and will add is that it's also possible that some owners of vehicles in the affected vin group may choose to not have this seal replacement job done at all. There have been prior posts from some of these owners, who have reported little or no oil consumption, which suggests that excessive oil consumption in this group of vehicles is not automatically going to occur.
So if there is actually a variable range of oil loss, then owners of vehicles which are in the 'good' part of the range, might just choose to live with very minor consumption, versus having the engine work done. I am not suggesting or recommending that anyone should skip having the work done, just mentioning that it's an option, and every owner is free to decide for him/herself.
The most surprising thing to me about this repair effort is that (so far anyway), Mazda did not specify a formal oil consumption test in the TSB as being a requirement for having the work approved. Being low on oil one time seems like a very loose criteria for having significant engine work done, especially considering that we know the 'book' specification for the oil change replacement amount is less that it should be (according to the dipstick anyway). So if the oil is underfilled during an oil change, and the low-level oil light comes on after 5K+ miles, what does that mean? It might be as little as 1/2 quart (or less) used in 5K+ miles.
I hope that Mazda decides in the very near future to do standard oil consumption testing on these affected vehicles, which would provide some concrete numbers for undecided owners, to help with their decision-making process.
edmas:. Very very well written post. That was my thought exactly on oil consumption rate. I'm an airplane mechanic and it's all about documentation. The fact that someone rolls into the dealership low on oil and the only thing they need to check is if the engine is dripping to meet the criteria for a significant repair seems way way too loose. This TSB was a long time coming and I'm absolutely shocked about the discretion that it's handing to the dealership whether the repair is made or not. There's no doubt most dealers will resist this repaired due to the 4.4 hour warranty rate compensation. There's nothing in it for them. If my vehicle was in the VIN group I would absolutely get those seals replaced. It's a known problem and it's going to fail eventually. And I would even consider buying the tools and doing it myself. Lot of these tools are just cya tools for mazda. Who uses a screwdriver down a spark plug hole for crying out loud. Most people use a fiberglass dowel for that procedure. I have done this repair on other engines and it's really not that big a deal. I have a special pliers that I grabbed the seal with to pull it off the valve guide. It's not rocket science but it's very detail oriented work
Do you happen to have a link? Thanks
Funny thing, after I told the dealer my car is burning oil(Light goes off in 4700 miles) they told me that they need to do consumption test, changed oil and asked me to come back in 2K miles. After 2K miles my car oil level is a tad above the Max marker!!! Not sure how this is possible, maybe they overfilled it?! Or I don't really know, could the problem resolve by itself? Valve seals do not fix themselves! so I have no clue! My car VIN is in the range of affected 2021 CX-9 Vehicles and the low oil light cam off 4 times so far( at 2500, then around 7K miles and around 11K and 15.5K miles). So its usually 4500 miles before the light goes off.
Why did they say they needed to do a consumption test? That's not what the tsb says. Tell him to read the tsb. 01-011/22. I like to lift the hood on my car and check my own oil. You need to know what your oil is first thing in the morning before you start it. Get it to the full line. Then find how long it takes to get to the admark. The tsp simply States that if you go to the dealer and you have a low oil level code then the repair is covered under warranty. There's no consumption test there's no anything except for that low oil code that is the criteria,....... period. Some people would just decide that if they are in the VIN range then they know they got the garbage seals in their engines and it's going to fail soon so they would drain out two quarts of oil and drive into the dealer and tell them to look for the code. Of course it will be there so the only thing after that would be scheduling the appointment for the repair. I'm just saying that's what some people might do
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Thanks! This time it has not lost any oil in 2K miles and the only reason I think is because they overfilled it after I complained that the car is burning oil. Usually the light goes off after 4700 mils and it happened 3 times so far. When I mentioned the TSB he ignored me and talked something else(just like he didn’t hear me). He said bring it in 2K miles and let’s do the consumption test. They already overfilled it so they know when I come after 2K miles the oil will be at or above the max marker!!! I am not going to them again untill the light goes off. There is no other explanation since the seals do not get fixed by itsef.
This dealer doesnt like people coming in with TSB paper and asking for a fix. Also the service advisors are usually fresh graduates and kind of rude with no much knowledge about cars. I had totally opposite experience with BMW where the service advisors where senior, kind and very knowledgeable and willing to investigate and resolve any problems you bring to thier attention. I guess you get what you pay for.
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- 2021 CX-9 Sig
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- 2021 CX-5 GT
I have repeatedly mentioned this in posts through this thread but the strange thing is that if you check at any point below 4K miles, everything looks fine. After that, from 4K to 5K, the levels drop dramatically.
Jack Rabbit
Banned
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- 18 Mazda CX5 AW
It sounds like what's happening is as the oil gets older it is getting thinner(either the oil is breaking down or their is gas in the oil so a Blackstone UOA might be needed) and working past the *deficient/damaged seals after the 4k/5k mark.
If i was OP, would change oil (or have a local mechanic do it so you have a record, get Blackstone test on the used oil, take pictures of your dipstick after car sat overnight, make sure dipstick is at the line an don't overfilled....if so, drain some out and then take picture of dipstick with date/time stamp, drive CX9 for 5000 miles and check oil level, if down take to dealer and get them to fix it.
I have never had to add oil to a new engine/ new car between oil changes until the car was really old( 12 to 14 years) and started to burn some oil.
For them to say, yeah well test it after 2000 miles is crazy. Especially when oil changes are every 5000 to 7500 miles.
Unless you have a leak in the oil pan or a completely f'd up engine, no engine is gonna burn that much oil in 2000 miles.
They clearly are treating you like some young niave person. They usually treat most people like idiots because most of the population is not mechanically knowledgeable.
Edit: for reference, have had VW, Ford, Chevy and Toyota engines last well over 10-12 years and over 140,000 miles before even starting to need added oil between changes.
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