What have you done to your MSP today?

[Alamo1]

Now that I am looking into it I may just buy a new seal for the compressor housing and fix the wastegate flap on the stock turbo, I don't want to keep removing the turbo but I think it may be worth a shot. I was able to hit boost in it so I know it works but I am afraid the internal seals are leaking not just the O ring on the compressor housing. Turbine housing looks fine, no leaks

I am a machinist at a turbo machinery shop. We do ones smaller than T25 all the way up to units with 36" compressor impellers and they DO NOT normally leak on their own. If the turbine end is dry but the compressor end is wet there's a few checks you can do.

1) Does the crankcase breather line still connect to the inlet pipe between the turbo and filter? If so, and the inlet pipe is wet, the oil is coming from there.
2) Is the compressor wheel visibly blackened? Is it oily? Dry and dirty indicates filthy air-filter. Wet indicates the above.

Causes of leaks at just the compressor are usually due to two factors; dirty air-filter causing a small restriction in the inlet which effects what we call "vaccum", for ease of explanation, though it's more like a lessening of ability to flow normally. This in turn lowers the air pressure against the mechanical ring seal allowing oil to escape. It does not affect any of the ability of the turbo to make air. The other is crankcase pressure but normally it will make both ends leak, but we've seen some interesting cases... Or it could be oil from the crankcase escaping through the breather line.

The o-ring between the backing plate and the compressor cover just seals boost in.

Let me know what you find. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Valk]

id like to get some body parts, but not really in a pos to drop a bunch of money on them =(

 

[Preferio]

Probably Canada.

Yep. I'm guessing Brampton. That sucks. I've been looking for a spicy roller because spicy is a b**** to paint, let alone match, and they're few and far between in salvage yards. Might have something to do with only 600 of them ever existing....

 

[Preferio]

Pick up a transmission for the 8 or the 'speed?

MSP Cons: No AC, loud, obnoxious, no AC, turbo is pushing oil and no AC. It's going to be in the 80's and 90's very soon.
MSP Pros: Fast, fun, loud, brand new tires, new everything else, fun.

Rx8 Pros: AC, amenities, AC, quiet, comfortable.
Rx8 Cons: Not as fun, low on power, fuel economy is actually worse than my MSP on 22-24psi (lawlz), tires are at 4/32".

I can get another open diff. transmission for $76.00 for the MSP and a transmission for the 8 for $200-270 locally. No other issues with the 8 to worry about other than tires soon. The MSP will also need a new turbo. Probably a good time to down the MSP for the turbo. And transmission obviously. I was going to take it out of daily status soon anyway because of the AC.

 

[hornsfan10609]

I am a machinist at a turbo machinery shop. We do ones smaller than T25 all the way up to units with 36" compressor impellers and they DO NOT normally leak on their own. If the turbine end is dry but the compressor end is wet there's a few checks you can do.

1) Does the crankcase breather line still connect to the inlet pipe between the turbo and filter? If so, and the inlet pipe is wet, the oil is coming from there.
2) Is the compressor wheel visibly blackened? Is it oily? Dry and dirty indicates filthy air-filter. Wet indicates the above.

Causes of leaks at just the compressor are usually due to two factors; dirty air-filter causing a small restriction in the inlet which effects what we call "vaccum", for ease of explanation, though it's more like a lessening of ability to flow normally. This in turn lowers the air pressure against the mechanical ring seal allowing oil to escape. It does not affect any of the ability of the turbo to make air. The other is crankcase pressure but normally it will make both ends leak, but we've seen some interesting cases... Or it could be oil from the crankcase escaping through the breather line.

The o-ring between the backing plate and the compressor cover just seals boost in.

Let me know what you find. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Thank you for chiming in, I don't know much about turbos and really need some help here. It is the original (as far as I know) GT25 with 110k miles, the intake is just a 12" long 2.5" pipe with an old Spectre air filter on it. Filter came on the car and is old but certainly lets air through. There was a pool of oil maybe a tsp or two in the intake side of the turbo, the crankcrase breather on the VC has a filter it does not connect to the intake. And the hotpipe had more than that, not an insane amount but enough to puddle up (more than just a film on the piping). Only put about 500 miles on the car and the entire time it wasn't hitting boost because of the WG flap dragging on the housing and sticking open. Can the wg flap sticking open possibly cause the turbo to overspin and spew oil? Everything I have found tells me the seals are bad and it needs to be rebuilt or replaced but I would much rather reuse it obviously. My other msp has the original T25 and 167k miles and I have never had any problems with it on 10lbs the last 4 years.

 

[The_big_dill]

Thank you for chiming in, I don't know much about turbos and really need some help here. It is the original (as far as I know) GT25 with 110k miles, the intake is just a 12" long 2.5" pipe with an old Spectre air filter on it. Filter came on the car and is old but certainly lets air through. There was a pool of oil maybe a tsp or two in the intake side of the turbo, the crankcrase breather on the VC has a filter it does not connect to the intake. And the hotpipe had more than that, not an insane amount but enough to puddle up (more than just a film on the piping). Only put about 500 miles on the car and the entire time it wasn't hitting boost because of the WG flap dragging on the housing and sticking open. Can the wg flap sticking open possibly cause the turbo to overspin and spew oil? Everything I have found tells me the seals are bad and it needs to be rebuilt or replaced but I would much rather reuse it obviously. My other msp has the original T25 and 167k miles and I have never had any problems with it on 10lbs the last 4 years.

These ball bearing turbos are meant to last the life of the car. The reason they fail is because people don't care for their cars. And I mean the basics like regular oil changes, regular air filter changes, etc.

 

[hornsfan10609]

Just hammered the WG flap back in on the turbo, popped right back in no problem and it doesn't scrape the housing.

Here are some pics:

There is definitely some oil leaking from the compressor housing but there is some WD40 on it as well so not all of that is oil. Turbine side wasn't leaking as much if any.

And that one bolt broke, that won't cause a leak will it? I don't know how you could have removed that bolt it was rusty and seized in there.


Not much oil in the housing but a lot more than there should be.

 

[Valk]

horns, how is the best way to remove the oil cooler and stuff?I was thinking of pulling the intake mani out and trying to fish all the turbo hoses from the block still attached to the turbo?

 

[Alamo1]

horns, how is the best way to remove the oil cooler and stuff?I was thinking of pulling the intake mani out and trying to fish all the turbo hoses from the block still attached to the turbo?

You should easily be able to take the cooler and turbo lines apart with the IM off.

 

[Alamo1]

Just hammered the WG flap back in on the turbo, popped right back in no problem and it doesn't scrape the housing.
There is definitely some oil leaking from the compressor housing but there is some WD40 on it as well so not all of that is oil. Turbine side wasn't leaking as much if any.
And that one bolt broke, that won't cause a leak will it? I don't know how you could have removed that bolt it was rusty and seized in there.
Not much oil in the housing but a lot more than there should be.

So, the turbine looks ok from what I can tell, clean and dry. The white shows it was running well, no oil. The broken bolt wont cause a leak but can cause other issues, especially if others back out. If the center section comes loose wheels will rub the housings and BOOM. The broken bolt and what looks to be a loose bolt makes me a little nervous but if all the other bolts are good and tight, you SHOULD be ok…. (Disclaimer here)

Just what I expected, the front of the comp wheel is filthy!!! That was all coming in the air-filter or the crankcase breather line before it was removed. Bad maintenance. IF you took the compressor wheel off the shaft and look at the back of it, it would look like the scudge on the backing plate, but DON'T TAKE IT OFF. The compressor blade edges look cleaned off just like the wheel contour of the housing. DO YOU THINK THEY TOUCHED THE HOUSING?

My recommendation would be to get a rag and some brake clean or some other solvent on it and clean everything in the compressor end; blades, housing, backing plate and all. Then spray out the hot pipe with the same. You can also dismount the intercooler and see how much oil there seems to be in there. If lots, clean it out. Then once cleaned, put it all back together, run it for a few hundred miles (with a new air-filter) and then pull the hot pipe to see if there is a bunch of oil in there. If it's only a fine film you should be ok because that's normal on an older turbo.

Before putting it back on the car, do the rock test. With the turbo completely assembled grab the nut on the compressor end and the nub on the turbine wheel with your thumb and index finger. Force them opposite ways radially and turn the rotor. Do this a few different directions. You're trying to make it rub the housings, if you can the turbo is junk, if not, run it. You can also try axially, pushing the rotor toward the each end and spin.

The only other option is to buy a new turbo and do all the same cleaning to the pipes and intercooler. Being a turbo guy, myself, I'd try it first and see where it gets you. I've been running well used SR20 S14 GT25BB with a large internal crack in the turbine housing for more than 40k miles and never had an issue.

Let us know what happens.

 

[hornsfan10609]

So, the turbine looks ok from what I can tell, clean and dry. The white shows it was running well, no oil. The broken bolt wont cause a leak but can cause other issues, especially if others back out. If the center section comes loose wheels will rub the housings and BOOM. The broken bolt and what looks to be a loose bolt makes me a little nervous but if all the other bolts are good and tight, you SHOULD be ok…. (Disclaimer here)

Just what I expected, the front of the comp wheel is filthy!!! That was all coming in the air-filter or the crankcase breather line before it was removed. Bad maintenance. IF you took the compressor wheel off the shaft and look at the back of it, it would look like the scudge on the backing plate, but DON'T TAKE IT OFF. The compressor blade edges look cleaned off just like the wheel contour of the housing. DO YOU THINK THEY TOUCHED THE HOUSING?

My recommendation would be to get a rag and some brake clean or some other solvent on it and clean everything in the compressor end; blades, housing, backing plate and all. Then spray out the hot pipe with the same. You can also dismount the intercooler and see how much oil there seems to be in there. If lots, clean it out. Then once cleaned, put it all back together, run it for a few hundred miles (with a new air-filter) and then pull the hot pipe to see if there is a bunch of oil in there. If it's only a fine film you should be ok because that's normal on an older turbo.

Before putting it back on the car, do the rock test. With the turbo completely assembled grab the nut on the compressor end and the nub on the turbine wheel with your thumb and index finger. Force them opposite ways radially and turn the rotor. Do this a few different directions. You're trying to make it rub the housings, if you can the turbo is junk, if not, run it. You can also try axially, pushing the rotor toward the each end and spin.

The only other option is to buy a new turbo and do all the same cleaning to the pipes and intercooler. Being a turbo guy, myself, I'd try it first and see where it gets you. I've been running well used SR20 S14 GT25BB with a large internal crack in the turbine housing for more than 40k miles and never had an issue.

Let us know what happens.

The backed out bolt I had to loosen to remove the heatshield, it is tight now. There is no evidence of scraping on the housings, and the turbine does not have any excess play. Certainly not enough to scrape. I fixed the WG flap and reinstalled the turbo and it still won't even hit boost. It gets almost up to 0 on the boost gauge and then it tapers off and loses pressure. WGA holds air and has pressure holding the flap shut. Is it even possible for the turbo to be so bad that it won't even build boost? Somehow last week when I was messing with the WG flap on the outside of the housing the car started boosting and it hit 6psi so I know it isn't a massive boost leak. I was able to go into boost 3-4 times then I parked the car and it was back to not boosting again when I drove it again an hour later. And the vac reads steady 23in/hg at idle. I am stumped, don't understand how the turbo can't even build 1lb of boost pressure.

Just drove it again, still can't hit boost and it still tapers off once it peaks around 0psi, was able to hit 1psi with the AC on in 4th and 5th for a second then it dropped down. And just to be clear I have already tried capping the WG vac line, didn't make a difference.

 

[hornsfan10609]

horns, how is the best way to remove the oil cooler and stuff?I was thinking of pulling the intake mani out and trying to fish all the turbo hoses from the block still attached to the turbo?

That sounds like a major PITA with the engine in the car, but like you say you would definitely need to remove the IM. You will need a nut for the oil cooler stud to make a jam nut and remove it from the block. Everything else is pretty straightforward.

 

[hornsfan10609]

Fuuu there is a clean P5 on CL for 1500 that needs a head gasket. I have absolutely no monies but I am considering figuring out a way to buy it so I can fix it and flip it. Clean P5s are worth $4-5k easy and this one has a moonroof, leather and the tiptronic, as long as the trans is in good shape I want to pick it up.

 

[Valk]

Pulling engibe from msp a little impractical atm til I get a stand. I also don't have a garage. Just a covered car port. Not sure I'd want the bare motor sitting around too long.

I might not even bother. I might just tap the oil pressure sender if that's possible. Ill do some research. Obv the entire msp setup would be the easiest to do but the lines aren't in amazing shape.

 

[hornsfan10609]

It's definitely possible to do just need to pull the IM first, it's crowded in there with the starter installed. I would just run the stock MSP water and oil lines, much easier than making a new setup.

 

[Valk]

i should think with the IM off, it should be pretty easy to fish the starter out ect. id looked pretty spacious actually, when i put the p5 motor in. maybe next weekend ill get to pulling all that. i do remember two of the IM bolts being less than fun trying to remove.
easier to install after i deleted the VTCS though.

 

[Alamo1]

The backed out bolt I had to loosen to remove the heatshield, it is tight now. There is no evidence of scraping on the housings, and the turbine does not have any excess play. Certainly not enough to scrape. I fixed the WG flap and reinstalled the turbo and it still won't even hit boost. It gets almost up to 0 on the boost gauge and then it tapers off and loses pressure. WGA holds air and has pressure holding the flap shut. Is it even possible for the turbo to be so bad that it won't even build boost? Somehow last week when I was messing with the WG flap on the outside of the housing the car started boosting and it hit 6psi so I know it isn't a massive boost leak. I was able to go into boost 3-4 times then I parked the car and it was back to not boosting again when I drove it again an hour later. And the vac reads steady 23in/hg at idle. I am stumped, don't understand how the turbo can't even build 1lb of boost pressure.

Just drove it again, still can't hit boost and it still tapers off once it peaks around 0psi, was able to hit 1psi with the AC on in 4th and 5th for a second then it dropped down. And just to be clear I have already tried capping the WG vac line, didn't make a difference.

Sounds like you might have some FOD on the turbine wheel. I know this is gojng to be a pain but I think you're gonna need to take the turbo off again. Sorry. I thought you just had an oil leak issue. You'll be looking at the turbine wheel for this. The image at the very bottom of the page. You should be able to see the blade edges without taking the housing off. Just shine a good flashlight into the turbine out and look down the housing contour at the portions of the blades that are broken in the image.

The only other issue you might be having is that the spring in the actiator is shot and the exhaust air is just pushing it open. But that's unlikely since you've already checked it.

Let me know what you find.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/static/mazdaSpeedVehiclesCommonProtegeSession4.html

 

[ZealoustheEnder]

i should think with the IM off, it should be pretty easy to fish the starter out ect. id looked pretty spacious actually, when i put the p5 motor in. maybe next weekend ill get to pulling all that. i do remember two of the IM bolts being less than fun trying to remove.
easier to install after i deleted the VTCS though.

I did my starter from underneath. Removed the support from the IM and just slipped it out the back.

 

[ZealoustheEnder]

Sounds like you might have some FOD on the turbine wheel. I know this is gojng to be a pain but I think you're gonna need to take the turbo off again. Sorry. I thought you just had an oil leak issue. You'll be looking at the turbine wheel for this. The image at the very bottom of the page. You should be able to see the blade edges without taking the housing off. Just shine a good flashlight into the turbine out and look down the housing contour at the portions of the blades that are broken in the image.

The only other issue you might be having is that the spring in the actiator is shot and the exhaust air is just pushing it open. But that's unlikely since you've already checked it.

Let me know what you find.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/static/mazdaSpeedVehiclesCommonProtegeSession4.html

That link came up dead for me. You may want to check it.

 

[hornsfan10609]

Sounds like you might have some FOD on the turbine wheel. I know this is gojng to be a pain but I think you're gonna need to take the turbo off again. Sorry. I thought you just had an oil leak issue. You'll be looking at the turbine wheel for this. The image at the very bottom of the page. You should be able to see the blade edges without taking the housing off. Just shine a good flashlight into the turbine out and look down the housing contour at the portions of the blades that are broken in the image.

The only other issue you might be having is that the spring in the actiator is shot and the exhaust air is just pushing it open. But that's unlikely since you've already checked it.

Let me know what you find.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/static/mazdaSpeedVehiclesCommonProtegeSession4.html

I don't mind removing the turbo again, I just want it to make boost. (Full story of the car so we are on the same page: Purchased car with blown motor, 110k. Swapped JY motor and reinstalled turbo, car runs great no vac leaks and very smooth just will not push boost. Ebay fmic kit and relocated maf with no apparent leaks.) There was oil in the hot pipe and a small pool in the intake when I first pulled it because it would not build boost.

You can tell from the pics the turbine wheel is not damaged, the blades and the housing are perfect. I can try another wastegate actuator but it definitely has a good amount of tension on the wg flap, it takes some force to move it. What can cause a turbo to blow oil and not build boost? I assume it would be the seals inside the center cartridge behind the compressor wheel. Is there anything else it could be?

I would like to believe this turbo is ok, PO said the car pushed 8psi all day but I purchased it from another guy who only had it long enough to put 1k miles on it (and blow it up). Hard to believe the turbo and motor could both be bad. No shrapnel made it through the engine when the #1 rod snapped, the head and manifolds were fine so no particles could have damaged the turbine wheel as far as I know.