Why you prefer NA over Boost...

[bruce95fmla]

I give plenty respect to N/A cars. My only problem with the whole N/A thing is, it costs to much money. Also the reliability of your car also goes out the window. At the same time I am not going to say I don't appreciate a n/a motor. I mean I love the sound of a lumpy idle and the high rpm's and what not. I get that with my 2 BP powered mazda's right now.
However
We have a motor that is very capalbe of holding power and great amounts of boost STOCK. There are not many motors from manufactures that can make that claim. (I am refering to the BP and B6T).

Also I think that turbo motors deserve a lot of respect also. They are usually planned out, just like a na set up, and usually well thought out. I know that I rather to turbo my protege, mainly because it is more profitable for me in the long run. It really doesn't make sense for me to spend thousands of dollars on a full na build up and I can't net over 200hp TO THE GROUND.
Yup to heck with the crank, I want 200 to the ground minimum. Even though n/a is the harder way of life, and I respect people that have the money to forfill those dreams. I just rather have a turbo with forged internals and still would have spent half or less than the na guy spent to build his whole motor.
If you have the money go for it. If not then it's boost.
It all will boil down to having the cash and the time. These two things is not readily available to everyone in the automotive community.

Good luck

 

[FunkyBuddha]

For me, it's the throttle response, no turbo lag, smoother power delivery, the sound of the engine as it reaches redline. Plus there's less likely a chance of me blowing my engine/tranny. Being mildly tuned means that I can still run regular unleaded gas since these gas prices are so damn ******* high!! LOL

 

[bruce95fmla]

If you get the proper size turbo, matching it to you engine size and needs, you won't loose throttle response.

 

[Installshield 2]

I agree with most of what you said bruce...However, if you are going for crazy numbers with a turbo on a small displacment engine...You will ALWAYS have some lag, simply because you need to flow tons of air by means of a big turbo...and a turbo of that size has trouble being bossed around by 4 puny exhaust ports...On less boost though it will not be nearly as noticable...

Also when speeking in terms of going all out crazy turbo...You will still spend a ton of money...Basically with NA, at least with an FS, you HAVE to start with a Standalone before any of the internal work...Forged internals for high revving and a standalone puts you at over 3 grand in most cases...but from that is where the gains are very significant...after those mods + the bolt ons, it is very difficult to gain much more...An engine running a turbo and forged internals and a standalone is extremely expensive too though...This is a land of 6+ grand either way you cut it...The turbo route will give the huge numbers, and the NA route won't...But after you have forged internals, and all the stuff for the turbo you can't say you didn't spend much...

But I do agree with the notion of a lot of turbo builds being very well thought out...To do it correctly and reliably takes a great deal of knowlege, and in some cases some trial and error as well as custom work...I love that about it...But as far as these cars, and their chassis, it just seems that a very powerful NA engine is in its blood...

 

[shinzen]

I think the difference for the turbo guys is the instant gratification- bolt this on and bam! instant power, but like you said, to get it right there is a lot of planning that should go into it. The nice thing is 3k and you have 200hp- the problem being is the lack of supporting mods and then the engine goes boom-

 

[Gen1GT]

Thanks for the compliment 20EVOLUTION. LOL, I'm not quite as modest as Install, as I know I know more than most, and have a bit more experience than most, but I'm far from an expert. I'm ALWAYS learning more, reading, experimenting and listening to people who've done it before. Right now, my mechanic(who does all the stuff I can't do, like welding, dyno tuning etc) and the guys at Miata.net are tonnes of help, and so knowledgable.

Here's a recommendation. Buy and read "How to build Honda Power"(do an Amazon search). It covers the basics of what you need to know about building a 4 cyl engine. Right now I'm re-reading my books on Balancing and Blueprinting, and my Miata 1.8 Enthusiast Manual, because I'm rebuilding and blueprinting a BP. FS guys don't have the luxury of the performance shop manual yet(if you guys don't have your factory shop manual, you should get one), but anything you can read will aid your general knowledge of cars. Some more advice, buy a scrap 4 cyl engine with a blown head gasket or something like that, and rebuild it yourself. You'll pay for a little bit of machining possibly, and a rebuild/gasket kit. But the knowledge you'll gain will be priceless, and you can even sell the rebuilt motor to make back all your money and more.....

 

[bruce95fmla]

Thanks for the compliment 20EVOLUTION. LOL, I'm not quite as modest as Install, as I know I know more than most, and have a bit more experience than most, but I'm far from an expert. I'm ALWAYS learning more, reading, experimenting and listening to people who've done it before. Right now, my mechanic(who does all the stuff I can't do, like welding, dyno tuning etc) and the guys at Miata.net are tonnes of help, and so knowledgable.

Here's a recommendation. Buy and read "How to build Honda Power"(do an Amazon search). It covers the basics of what you need to know about building a 4 cyl engine. Right now I'm re-reading my books on Balancing and Blueprinting, and my Miata 1.8 Enthusiast Manual, because I'm rebuilding and blueprinting a BP. FS guys don't have the luxury of the performance shop manual yet(if you guys don't have your factory shop manual, you should get one), but anything you can read will aid your general knowledge of cars. Some more advice, buy a scrap 4 cyl engine with a blown head gasket or something like that, and rebuild it yourself. You'll pay for a little bit of machining possibly, and a rebuild/gasket kit. But the knowledge you'll gain will be priceless, and you can even sell the rebuilt motor to make back all your money and more.....

Yeah I agree with you. I have 3 BP's. 1 in the protege and 1 in the 323 and 1 in my back yard with new miata pistons (parting out). My original plan for my protege was turbo and my original plan for my 323 was full NA power (but needed to be reliable). Plans changed for the 323 when I found a turbo for 150 with manifold and since I can make all the pipeing myself. I can just do it and run low boost for fun.

I do agree with the manual and the learning. You learn so much when you pull your own motor apart. I did this 3 times, with honeing out the block, pulling rods, replacing everything, cleaning and all that jazz... It is fun, time consuming but fun.

hey believe it or not I have an offer for a trade, for a set of Genie headers for my turbo.. lol.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

Haha..N/A is fun. Especially when we were crusining on the saw mill and the dx was rockin it. DX owns you. haha. bruce knows whats up.

 

[20EVOLUTION01]

In my time I have rebuilt two V8 Engines, one with High Performanc parts. I loved taking them apart and putting them back together. My Brother has a 1976 Grand Prix with the 350. I love the engine. This is the one we rebuilt using High Performance Parts. I gained a lot from rebuilding these V8's. I am now trying to find a 2.0 for rebuilding and modifying since my MP is my daily driver. I have a lot of experience in body work, electrical, welding, and mechanical but I lack in knowledge about making the motor perform, what the weakest links in the motors are and what can be done to make it better. I have gained a lot from reading in this forum and so in others. My Brother owns a P5 and he loves his car but is not into modifying it.

Sorry it looks like I got off topic on the thread. I also sometimes ramble on. (blah)

 

[Installshield 2]

don't worry about it dude...We all ramble...

 

[MSPinVA]

No offense to you N/A guys, but some of you I just don't get. N/A power is great (I drove Camaros before I bought my MSP), but why? I know it's more of a challenge to build up a motor without any FI, but isn't it a little disheartening when someone who spent half the money and time you did on the same car totally whoops you at the track? The excuse "Yeah, but I'm NA" is only gonna get you laughed at. Everyone knows that this FS motor is an NA dog.

And the cracks about the Mazdaspeed and other boosted proteges were totally unwarrented. Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege. Let me put about 2 grand into my car and, oh, wait. I dropped more than a second and gained more than 50 horsepower. And you are.... still slow. Sorry, but if you want an NA beast go get a B18C5 or a K20/24 hybrid and kill us all. That's just my .02 though, let the flaming begin.

 

[twilightprotege]

no flaming allowed here, but how much more did you pay for your car to start off with??? we're not starting from the same figures remember....if an NA car spends the difference we saved compaired to a turbo we'd be quicker w/o doubt

 

[Installshield 2]

Yeah we went over this...A turbo protege, at this point, is still slow...Like I mentioned earlier, and I don't know what type of people you hang around as far as car enthusiasts; My friends and I always laugh the hardest at the turbo guy that got crushed by an NA car...Once you hang that compressor off your exhaust manifold, you no longer have any reason to still be slow..thats my point, and most turbo proteges are still slow at this point, except when compared to a stock protege...

Who laughs at a 2.0L NA car getting beat by a turbocharged car????? Anyone with half a mind would understand why it got beat, or why it "should" have got beat...

A friend of mine owns a '88 Porsche 944 S (which is not the Turbo)..that makes roughly 185bhp stock from its 2.5L mill...After some internal work, I/H/E, and a Unichip he is making plenty more (this has nothing to do with NA in general, just listing the mods he made)...and last weekend he destroyed a SRT-4...I pointed and laughed at the SRT-4 driver for over an hour, only because of his "I have a turbo, Germany can't touch this thing" statement 38 seconds before they lined up...

Now on the otherhand, if the SRT-4 would have destroyed the NA 944, I would have expected it..unless he left it bone stock, which he didn't...A 2.5L NA 944 with 12.5:1 compression pushing nearly 250whp to the rear wheels is so much more impressive than a equally powerful turbo'd 944...deny it all you want...

NA vs. FI is fundamentally unfair...I don't know why anyone would hackle the kid that stayed NA and lost against someone who went the FI route...there is no reason to have the easy advantage of FI, and still get fed taillights by some NA chump...especially pertaining to small displacement four cylinder cars...

In all reality, most of us NA dudes are just looking for a more fun to drive protege...I don't want to have a turbo'd protege for a lot of reasons...and I couldn't give two s**** about which cars my protege is capable of beating...I just want to have great handling NA car that will scream up mountain roads faster than it will now...so that is what I plan on doing...If a turbo'd car comes around, and beats me in a straight line...I don't care...The bank account is already saving for the EVO in the future, to deal with the little straight line problem...

 

[Notorious]

for me instant throttle response, also i like the peakiness of a heavily tuned n/a car. ooo and the sounds

 

[20EVOLUTION01]

In all reality, most of us NA dudes are just looking for a more fun to drive protege...I don't want to have a turbo'd protege for a lot of reasons...and I couldn't give two s**** about which cars my protege is capable of beating...I just want to have great handling NA car that will scream up mountain roads faster than it will now...so that is what I plan on doing...If a turbo'd car comes around, and beats me in a straight line...I don't care...The bank account is already saving for the EVO in the future, to deal with the little straight line problem...

You are totaly right. I love my car for how it is. The Protege already handles good on the corners, believe me, I have made my car go through hell and back and still keeps up with me. Could use some fine tuning though. Once the engine goes out, I don't know what I will place in there (dunno), Probably make it a real sleeper, Rotary anyone? Just a thought.
(uhm)

 

[Gen1GT]

No offense to you N/A guys, but some of you I just don't get. N/A power is great (I drove Camaros before I bought my MSP), but why? I know it's more of a challenge to build up a motor without any FI, but isn't it a little disheartening when someone who spent half the money and time you did on the same car totally whoops you at the track? The excuse "Yeah, but I'm NA" is only gonna get you laughed at. Everyone knows that this FS motor is an NA dog.

And the cracks about the Mazdaspeed and other boosted proteges were totally unwarrented. Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege. Let me put about 2 grand into my car and, oh, wait. I dropped more than a second and gained more than 50 horsepower. And you are.... still slow. Sorry, but if you want an NA beast go get a B18C5 or a K20/24 hybrid and kill us all. That's just my .02 though, let the flaming begin.

I think YOU are the one that doesn't get it. There is so much to a car than how fast it is in a straight line. Driving a Protege, you'd think you would know that. And why would I buy a B15C5 or K20? They ALREADY have a lot of power. Come on man, when I'm making 60% more power than stock, without a turbo, you have to admit that's pretty impressive.

Think about what you said, "Congratulations, Gen1Gt is almost as fast as a horribly untuned barely-boosted stock FS-powered Protege." Admitting that I'm almost as fast as a boosted car, meanwhile I'm only getting 117whp. Wait til I have 170.

 

[MSPinVA]

No no, you misread me. "Some of you I don't get" not "Some of you don't get it". I don't see exactly how turboing a car is cheating in any respect or takes away from the fact that this car IS so much more than being able to go fast in a straight line. The turbo just adds to the fact that we can corner well and now go decently fast coming out of said corners. A friend of mine took his Evolution to the track and commented how much he was impressed by the Mazdaspeeds keeping up with the bigger boys in the twisties.

And don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for you N/A guys, I just think that you have the wrong impression of forced induction.

 

[DiscreetSpeed]

I'd like to hear why everyone in this section prefers NA over boost. I talk with other people about it, and they think I'm crazy that I'd rather have a 150whp NA car, than a 250whp turbo car. Here's my reasons

throttle response, both on and off throttle
the sound..you can't beat actually being able to hear valve events
linear power delivery
drivability
engine braking


I don't want to hear from people who just 'can't afford a turbo'. I want to hear from people who would build an NA car even if they had all the money in the world....

i know this is not my area..being that i have a turbo...but i disagree with your reasons...throttle response for one. i would agree if you had like a t3/t4 turbo with lag but with a smaller turbo like say the gt-25 there is no lag and throttle response is instant...linear power again if you had a big turbo there would be a problem on my car its linear...i dont understand the driveability? i get 345 miles a tank...and runs smoothly.
engine braking? do you mean breaking or braking?

 

[Gen1GT]

Engine braking. When you let off the gas in gear, the compression of the engine creates vacuums that can't be filled, so it slows down the engine. Higher static compression, more engine braking.

Also, there ARE plenty of turbo cars with pretty good throttle response, and a low boost car like the Mazdaspeed would be pretty much un-noticable. But because of physics, it's impossible for an FI car to be as good as an NA car. First, there's the physical distance air has to travel in a turbo car once the throttle plate opens. Then there's the time it takes for the turbo to spin, and the time it takes for the compressor to build pressure. All fractions of a second of course, but still taking time. Also, on factory boosted cars, they tend to have thinner intake piping, which incourages low RPM throttle response.

 

[Gen1GT]

No no, you misread me. "Some of you I don't get" not "Some of you don't get it". I don't see exactly how turboing a car is cheating in any respect or takes away from the fact that this car IS so much more than being able to go fast in a straight line. The turbo just adds to the fact that we can corner well and now go decently fast coming out of said corners. A friend of mine took his Evolution to the track and commented how much he was impressed by the Mazdaspeeds keeping up with the bigger boys in the twisties.

And don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for you N/A guys, I just think that you have the wrong impression of forced induction.

Whups, sorry man, I read you wrong. LOL...it's all good though, I don't get some NA guys sometimes too. Like, MSD being their first mod on an otherwise stock car.... (dark)