Water/Methanol Injection, Anyone Use It?
- Thread starter mSHOCKERp
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Maxx Mazda
Contributor
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- Stock P5
GhostMercury said:
Do you have the V2?
GhostMercury
Member
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- MazdaSpeed 3 08.5
nope version one
Not sure if my feedback will help here because I drive a different car, but I run alcohol injection in mine. The alcohol system is automatic and sprays only when I hit a predetermined boost level. At 20psi the system starts spraying up to 26psi.
The control box is mounted in my car and has three lights. One is for armed which hopefully is always on when the car is on. The second is for spraying, so whenever you are above your predetermined boost level that light will blink fast. The last light is just a low-level light. Time to add more alcohol!
Not sure if your constraints are just what the block can handle or if you need a higher-octane level to run more boost without knock. If the higher-octane level for more boost is the issue, alcohol will be a great add!
It's probably the best mod for the money I've done to date.
Mike
The control box is mounted in my car and has three lights. One is for armed which hopefully is always on when the car is on. The second is for spraying, so whenever you are above your predetermined boost level that light will blink fast. The last light is just a low-level light. Time to add more alcohol!
Not sure if your constraints are just what the block can handle or if you need a higher-octane level to run more boost without knock. If the higher-octane level for more boost is the issue, alcohol will be a great add!
It's probably the best mod for the money I've done to date.
Mike
GhostMercury
Member
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- MazdaSpeed 3 08.5
is your setup made for your car. or is it a kit for any car?
GhostMercury said:
Well, I know the kit I have uses the original i/c sprayer bottle but there's also an option to mount something in the trunk. I'll check on this for you. I know there are a lot of kits out there, even some that have their own failsafes.
Thanks Nvr2old, I was hoping somebody with a kit would chime in. I thank everyone for the information but I have a few questions now that the info given has confused me. Why is 10psi pushing it? Is it too much for detonation control from the ECU (thats what the meth injection is for), or to much power potential for the stock internals? (doubt it). The boost will be increased on the dyno with meth injection to see if the ECU will adapt for the increase in fuel within a safe limit. Over that limit some sort of AFC will be added for substantial fueling. The meth injection will suppress detonation allowing the ECU not to pull so much timing from the knock sensor, resulting in smoother power curves. The meth injection system uses a MAP sensor base controller to initiate meth injection over a desired "x" amount of boost, any time the pressure drops below that set point the system turns off. The best of both worlds would allow control over fueling and ignition for meth. Thanks for any further elaboration, I was under the impression that with my supporting mods and then this system I would be more than safe at 10-10.5 psi and was hoping to be cool at 12psi.
Mike
Mike
the system uses a boost activated solenoid. You set where you want it to open. If you are a pro like me you right up a little light in the coqpit so you know when it activates. injecting water you start spraying above like 4psi, with methenol you will wanna wait until 8+psi since the car already runs so rich. I have some serious answers on how to tune these kits in another thread, just do some searching my fingers hurt lol pm me with anything you cant figure out.
14psi, fmic, injection + afc = 3rd geard burnouts from a roll at 100kmph..
14psi, fmic, injection + afc = 3rd geard burnouts from a roll at 100kmph..
GMalatrasi
Member
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- 2003 Mazda Proteg5, soon to be Turbo
Bump
Professor MSP
Member
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- 2003 Black Mica Mazdaspeed Protege
Methanol is readily available in all auto parts stores in the form of gas line anti-freeze. A popular brand is Heet in the yellow bottle, which is about $1.29 for 12 ounces and is 99% methanol (verified with the MSDS). Isopropanol is the other alcohol used in gas line antifreeze so you have to read the label, or better yet, get the MSDS for the product you intend to buy.
Water can be enoughit simply depends on your horepower goals for the car. The guys at turbobick.com have repeatedly shown in real-world testing that methanol is the optimal choice for maximum power. I now use 85% methanol and 15% distilled water. Distilled water is much less likely to clog the nozzle, so it is preferred over tap water.
Based on what I have read from (and I have read a fair bit of material):
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alcohol-nitrous-propane-tech/
http://forums.evolutionm.net/forumdisplay.php?f=173
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=189
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=145
water does not lead to any significant internal corrosion. In fact, those that have torn their motor apart report that water injection literally steam cleans the internals.
My research also indicates that methanol is more corrosive than ethanol (which you can also inject), and ethanol is more corrosive than water. But you have to remember that you are spraying only under boost, and typically only 15%25% of the total amount of liquid going in to the combustion chamber is alcohol and/or water. I have not found any reports of engines corroded by alcohol/water by those who have taken their motor apart.
My opinion is that this is an excellent modification for the MSP, which is why I went ahead and put one on. One thing, however, is that you must have a way to adjust your tune to account for the alcohol/water injection in order for it to perform optimally (more on that in another thread).
Last edited:
GMalatrasi
Member
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- 2003 Mazda Proteg5, soon to be Turbo
Would it be viable to use water injection on a car boosting at 5-7psi, instead of using 91 or 93 octane fuel?
Maxx Mazda
Contributor
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- Stock P5
GMalatrasi said:
No.
GMalatrasi
Member
- :
- 2003 Mazda Proteg5, soon to be Turbo
Would it do more than just lowering the intake and combustion temps for such low boost?
The Great NY
Member
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- 2004 Mazda Atenza(6)
injecting 100% water wont do anything for intake temps. you may see a 2degree difference in intake air temps. water is used mainly for combustion temps. what this means is if you have an EGT sensor you will see a drop in egt temps using 100% water. how much depends on the tune and if you were already creating to high a temps with too retarded timing.
to really reap the benefits of these systems you want to run at least a 40/60 meth to water mix. i run a 70/30 meth to water mix although anything higher than 50/50 is considered flammable which is the main reason its not always recommended.
the meth injection kits on the market are universal for the most part. they typically use boost referenced controller to tell the pump when to kick on and handle business. you can simply setup a toggle switch linked between the power of the controller. this is the simplest way. you guys are making stuff too difficult trying to wire it alternative stuff. a $2 switch will do what you want if you really wish to have it off sometimes. mine is on all the time. moreso has power to it. but it doesnt activate till im at my desied boost setting.
either way you look at it. if you go with any kind of extra injection you will need to tune it. or else your wasting money. if you dont have a way to tune at a minimum AFR.......then dont bother installing it. unless you plan on running just water as it doesnt effect AFR's. if you do use 100% water. use the smallest nozzle that comes with the kit. and make sure the pump is pushing out at 200psi to atomize that water as good as possible.
EDIT: lmfao........FML.....just saw the date of the last post.
to really reap the benefits of these systems you want to run at least a 40/60 meth to water mix. i run a 70/30 meth to water mix although anything higher than 50/50 is considered flammable which is the main reason its not always recommended.
the meth injection kits on the market are universal for the most part. they typically use boost referenced controller to tell the pump when to kick on and handle business. you can simply setup a toggle switch linked between the power of the controller. this is the simplest way. you guys are making stuff too difficult trying to wire it alternative stuff. a $2 switch will do what you want if you really wish to have it off sometimes. mine is on all the time. moreso has power to it. but it doesnt activate till im at my desied boost setting.
either way you look at it. if you go with any kind of extra injection you will need to tune it. or else your wasting money. if you dont have a way to tune at a minimum AFR.......then dont bother installing it. unless you plan on running just water as it doesnt effect AFR's. if you do use 100% water. use the smallest nozzle that comes with the kit. and make sure the pump is pushing out at 200psi to atomize that water as good as possible.
EDIT: lmfao........FML.....just saw the date of the last post.
GMalatrasi
Member
- :
- 2003 Mazda Proteg5, soon to be Turbo
Lol... No worries man. Still good info. Thanks
The Great NY
Member
- :
- 2004 Mazda Atenza(6)
Good stuff. I personally always recommend not going over a 80/20 meth to water mix. Reason being if you do 100% meth you loose the added cooling charateristics of the water. The water will actually drop combustion temps a bit and help in that area.
I run a 70/30 mix myself and find that to be a great ratio for the best octance increase to cylinder cooling ratio. Thats just on my car. Ive tuned a couple cars and they seemed to like completely different ratios which it is accepted since every motor have a different design
Glad you found a pump that works. Im currently running the aem unit with awesome sucess.
I run a 70/30 mix myself and find that to be a great ratio for the best octance increase to cylinder cooling ratio. Thats just on my car. Ive tuned a couple cars and they seemed to like completely different ratios which it is accepted since every motor have a different design
Glad you found a pump that works. Im currently running the aem unit with awesome sucess.
Talk about a blast from the past. I'm going to be running a meth setup by the end of summer. I have to aquire a 505 mani and J&S first, then its meth time. I'm going to be running a snow stage 2 kit with a fail safe. The reason being is that their failsafe can be wired into the J&S or bpv incase of a loss of meth. Which is an awesome option only offered by them as far as I know.
anyone else using meth?
anyone else using meth?
