Warning - Possible Hatch Damage Due to Ice Forming

[murky]

@ David Paul

You can stop the hatch easily with one hand so don*t know what happened with yours.

It has *pinch protection* if the door is stopped or resisted.

Thanks for the link. It's appreciated when you share documentation.

Looks like a tough design challenge for a sensing system for preventing excessive force while opening, especially if its applied near the pivot point as in this failure - which I agree with the OP sounds like a design problem. OP was using the feature as intended and had no outward indication that attempting to open the hatch would cause a problem. Even if there were visible ice on the outside of the hatch, I'd expect some sort of fail-safe, or at least some help from Mazda on the repair.

If the design and reliability folks at Mazda didn't take into account the possibility of something obstructing the opening near the hinge, I can see how it would lead to this outcome.

If the Auto-Reverse door sensing engages when say, 30 lbs extra force is applied at 30 inches from the hinge, that same resistance is equivalent to 300 lbs of force at 3 inches from the hinge due to the mechanical advantage of the moment applied to the lever arm.

I suppose it could also have a time, or rate of travel base shut-off. Unfortunately, to begin its motion from closed, it probably needs to be allowed to use enough torque to break free of surface icing and such for which there is probably a huge variation in conditions it needs to overcome. A very small resistance at the very bottom of the door, furthest from the hinge, will take a bunch of torque to overcome and might appear very similar to the servo as a very large resistance (like ice) near the hinge.

The bottom line is, if the frozen-water-near-the-hinge case was one that Mazda considered during development, they are clever enough to have implemented a fix, or at least a fail safe. If they decided it was too expensive to fix, they should have at least issued some messaging to customers to be aware that this was their responsibility. Failing that, I see no conscionable argument supporting Mazda's refusal to do the repairs on their dime.

 

[Young-nyc]

Cheers. It may not seem like it but I've moved on. It only grinds my gears again now that it's happened to someone else and they're likely going to be just as upset with the outcome as I was.

what would really grind my gears if this other person actually got mazda to help them...dang that would be cold!!!

 

[Studum]

what would really grind my gears if this other person actually got mazda to help them...dang that would be cold!!!

On the contrary, I would be thrilled. I'm hopeful the second person gets some help with their repair. If they do then in a perfect world they can provide me with some details regarding their case and I can go back to Mazda again and ask for them to make good of my case.

Knowing I'm not the only one though makes me wonder if there are others who it's happened to who aren't on the forums.

 

[Young-nyc]

On the contrary, I would be thrilled. I'm hopeful the second person gets some help with their repair. If they do then in a perfect world they can provide me with some details regarding their case and I can go back to Mazda again and ask for them to make good of my case.

Knowing I'm not the only one though makes me wonder if there are others who it's happened to who aren't on the forums.

there definitely can be others, but they all probably chaulked it up to "weather factors"

 

[madar]

Here's a good story for everyone.
When I was a teen with my Mazda RX4 and then RX3, I ran into an annoying problem every Winter morning after I had washed the car, the day before. The result was that I couldn't place my key in the door. Ice would form in the key slot and block the key.
I had to go back upstairs to boil some water and then pour it on the car door, over the key slot. Both doors were locked in the same manner, so I had to resort to this method many times during cold Winter mornings.
This was in Connecticut, by the way. I no longer have to deal with ice.

Or you could've sprayed some silicone into the lock and over the exterior slot, would've solved your problem as silicone repels water. Also, spraying silicone onto a rag and wiping it over your door seals would prevent your doors from freezing shut.

 

[Maximum_Effort]

I haven't had any damage yet, but we've repeatedly had the same issue. Ice/wet frozen snow builds up in the gap at the top of the rear hatch, and it makes for some pretty scary noises as the hatch approaches full open. As the OP stated, you can't visually see anything from the outside so it's only as the hatch approaches full open that you start hearing crunching sounds and realize there's ice/snow built-up in the gap and by then it's too late.

This happened to us just a few weeks ago so I decided to force the hatch to stop halfway upon reopening by pushing against it so I could clear the ice out. I was surprised by how much force was required to stop the hatch from opening. And per below, the amount of force required to stop the hatch is much higher that close to the hinges. 20~30 lbs sounds about right to stop the hatch from opening when pushing against the bottom of the hatch, so 2"~3" away from the pivot would require 200~300 lbs to stop the door..

If the Auto-Reverse door sensing engages when say, 30 lbs extra force is applied at 30 inches from the hinge, that same resistance is equivalent to 300 lbs of force at 3 inches from the hinge due to the mechanical advantage of the moment applied to the lever arm.

 

[kdaug]

I spoke to my dealer recently after reading this thread and he told me that they had one CX-5 owner come in with a bent top hatch due to wedging against ice in the top of the opening. He mentioned to me that after looking at the owners vehicle, the owner obviously hadn't cleaned the rear roof top of snow and/or ice build up (which is not uncommon for our neck of the woods in eastern Canada) and was told that Mazda could hardly be held responsible for his lack of attention to snow and ice buildup anywhere on his vehicle. His analogy to the owner was that it would be like accidently putting an object in the hinge side of an open door then trying to close the door. Damage to the hinge or door would be bound to happen, and you could hardly blame the house builder on the damage.

Fortunately I park my car in an attached garage to my house so any residual ice or snow in the top hatch area (that I have overlooked) will melt over night, and when I park outdoors during the day when it's snowing I always take extra care in cleaning snow off my vehicle and especially the hatch top area.

 

[Jonno21]

I spoke to my dealer recently after reading this thread and he told me that they had one CX-5 owner come in with a bent top hatch due to wedging against ice in the top of the opening. He mentioned to me that after looking at the owners vehicle, the owner obviously hadn't cleaned the rear roof top of snow and/or ice build up (which is not uncommon for our neck of the woods in eastern Canada) and was told that Mazda could hardly be held responsible for his lack of attention to snow and ice buildup anywhere on his vehicle. His analogy to the owner was that it would be like accidently putting an object in the hinge side of an open door then trying to close the door. Damage to the hinge or door would be bound to happen, and you could hardly blame the house builder on the damage.

Fortunately I park my car in an attached garage to my house so any residual ice or snow in the top hatch area (that I have overlooked) will melt over night, and when I park outdoors during the day when it's snowing I always take extra care in cleaning snow off my vehicle and especially the hatch top area.

I understood from the OP that the ice had formed and was trapped under the hatch opening on the plastic/rubber flap wind seal between the hatch and the bodywork? There was no sign of snow/ice on the exterior roof/hatch area(dunno) The motorised hatch did not stop even though it was bending the metal on the roof?

 

[kdaug]

I understood from the OP that the ice had formed and was trapped under the hatch opening on the plastic/rubber flap wind seal between the hatch and the bodywork? There was no sign of snow/ice on the exterior roof/hatch area(dunno) The motorised hatch did not stop even though it was bending the metal on the roof?

From what I can see in Stundum's first photo there is a significant amount of ice in front of the antenna. And as he says ice was trapped in the opening and attached to the wind seal. I just checked the size of the opening of my hatch. It is about 1/4" during the complete opening movement. Now in my opinion any ice attached to that rubber flap and completely filling that 1/4" gap is going to cause problems when you open the hatch. It is like trying to force 3/8" of ice through a 1/4" gap. Something would have to give.

 

[Anchorman]

It won*t stop when the resistance is from the hinged end. Too much leverage.

 

[Jonno21]

It won*t stop when the resistance is from the hinged end. Too much leverage.

Pity. Trouble is then you'd have to have "hinge sensors" and additional complexity, even if it's possible.

 

[Maximum_Effort]

Whoever you were speaking with at the dealership either doesn't understand the problem or is being deceitful. Water is pooling and freezing against the door seal at the top of the rear hatch. I can clear the snow off the car all day long and this will still happen. You CAN'T see the ice build-up in the gap from the outside of the vehicle, and the "stop-opening-we-hit-something" value is set so high that the hatch keeps opening even though it's plastically deforming sheetmetal. Your only clue that something is wrong is hearing this crunching sound as the hatch nears full open, at which point it's already too late.

It's a design flaw.

A more accurate analogy for your dealer would be that their hypothetical house builder painted the front door with paint that can't get wet, and then didn't tell the owners about it.

The first time it rains the front door is all messed up. According to your dealer clearly it's the owners fault because they let the door get wet even though they had no clue they couldn't let the door get wet because, well, this is Canada and it rains here all the time so why in God's name would someone sell them a house with a front door that can't get wet? And even if they knew, from the inside of the house they can't tell the front door is getting wet when it's raining, and the only way to find out is to open the door while it's raining which makes the door wet.

It's kind of like selling a vehicle into Canada without doing proper cold weather testing. Oh, wait...

I spoke to my dealer recently after reading this thread and he told me that they had one CX-5 owner come in with a bent top hatch due to wedging against ice in the top of the opening. He mentioned to me that after looking at the owners vehicle, the owner obviously hadn't cleaned the rear roof top of snow and/or ice build up (which is not uncommon for our neck of the woods in eastern Canada) and was told that Mazda could hardly be held responsible for his lack of attention to snow and ice buildup anywhere on his vehicle. His analogy to the owner was that it would be like accidently putting an object in the hinge side of an open door then trying to close the door. Damage to the hinge or door would be bound to happen, and you could hardly blame the house builder on the damage.

Fortunately I park my car in an attached garage to my house so any residual ice or snow in the top hatch area (that I have overlooked) will melt over night, and when I park outdoors during the day when it's snowing I always take extra care in cleaning snow off my vehicle and especially the hatch top area.

 

[yrwei52]

⋯ It's kind of like selling a vehicle into Canada without doing proper cold weather testing. Oh, wait...

Good analogy. And Mazda apparently didnt test its new hydraulic engine mount properly in cold climate either even through they have a test facility just for that.

I had tested anti-pinch feature for power windows on 2018 CX-5 when I found Mazda newly featured one-touch open-close power window to all 4 corners. It didnt require too much force to stop the window going up. Power liftgate definitely is more complicated similar to power sliding doors on the minivan. But I havent seen similar complaints on any other vehicle with power liftgate. Thiss a design flaw and didnt get caught during testing. And refusal to admit this design flaw on drainage and anti-pinch feature by Mazda Canada is unacceptable.

 

[kdaug]

Whoever you were speaking with at the dealership either doesn't understand the problem or is being deceitful. Water is pooling and freezing against the door seal at the top of the rear hatch. I can clear the snow off the car all day long and this will still happen. You CAN'T see the ice build-up in the gap from the outside of the vehicle, and the "stop-opening-we-hit-something" value is set so high that the hatch keeps opening even though it's plastically deforming sheetmetal. Your only clue that something is wrong is hearing this crunching sound as the hatch nears full open, at which point it's already too late.

It's a design flaw.

A more accurate analogy for your dealer would be that their hypothetical house builder painted the front door with paint that can't get wet, and then didn't tell the owners about it.

The first time it rains the front door is all messed up. According to your dealer clearly it's the owners fault because they let the door get wet even though they had no clue they couldn't let the door get wet because, well, this is Canada and it rains here all the time so why in God's name would someone sell them a house with a front door that can't get wet? And even if they knew, from the inside of the house they can't tell the front door is getting wet when it's raining, and the only way to find out is to open the door while it's raining which makes the door wet.

It's kind of like selling a vehicle into Canada without doing proper cold weather testing. Oh, wait...

Unfortunately for vehicle owners dealers are never willing to replicate the incident on their own vehicles and will only check out your vehicle after the incident has happened and the ice buildup can no longer be seen. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying owners are usually to blame....there are many instances like this where a design flaw may well be the major culprit. Mazda will have to put their CX-5's to another round of more comprehensive testing in colder climates (like Northern Canada) if they have any desire to replicate this issue and resolve it.

 

[Maximum_Effort]

Here's an example of what happens. This is after one night of freezing rain/ice pellets/snow.

 

[Studum]

From what I can see in Stundum's first photo there is a significant amount of ice in front of the antenna.

The first photo was taken immediately after the damage occurred. There was ice on the roof, I am not denying that at all. However there was no external ice or even snow on the roof anywhere near the roof / hatch joint (as pictured) and no way to tell at all that opening the hatch could cause body damage.

If the other person your dealer is referring to had the same type of damage I did I feel bad for them. He was likely as much a victim of Mazda's denial of a design issue.

If I had more time on my hands I would've bought a pass for the auto show and set up shop at Mazda's booth showing people looking at the car what could happen. Maybe that would've got their attention.

 

[kdaug]

The first photo was taken immediately after the damage occurred. There was ice on the roof, I am not denying that at all. However there was no external ice or even snow on the roof anywhere near the roof / hatch joint (as pictured) and no way to tell at all that opening the hatch could cause body damage.

OK, thanks for clearing that up for me. So, do you think the same snow/freezing rain that accumulated in front of your antenna could have accumulated down into the space between the roof and the hatch, partially thawed and refroze. This kind of solid buildup down inside the space and out of sight may well have created the kind of wedge that put pressure on the top edge of your hatch and rear roof area causing all that buckling. It seems odd that CX-5's would be the only CUV/SUV that would ever have suffered from such similar fate. It will certainly prove interesting to see how Mazda moves forward in trying to resolve this issue. I for one will certainly be keeping a closer eye on that hatch top area, but that may even not be enough due care.

 

[shadonoz]

It seems odd that CX-5's would be the only CUV/SUV that would ever have suffered from such similar fate.

It seems unavoidable given our hinge placement, far from the edge. I don't have another hatch handy to compare, but I'd guess many don't have so much overhang.

 

[jthj]

I think the placement is pretty common actually

 

[CX-5um]

The first thing I did was grab the hatch and tried to stop it. No joy. Instead of hitting the button, I just hung on to the hatch but my 179 pounds wasn't enough to stop it.

Wait did this dude actually hung on his hatch and it still carried him?!!