SCCA Auto-X Rules: Read This First, Then Ask Questions
- Thread starter apexlater
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i don't think so; uppipes are part of the turbo piping. generally, if an SCCA rules covers equivalents, it will state as much.
but it doesn't matter, as you can run a catless N/A header anyway. STX rules allow consolidation of up to 3 cats into 1. if i understand the rules correctly, you just have to make sure the cat is w/in 6" of the furthest downstream cat (which beats the STS "OE location" rule). so bolt on that AWR header and a high-flow cat.
of course, i have no idea why someone would run a N/A protege in STX....
but it doesn't matter, as you can run a catless N/A header anyway. STX rules allow consolidation of up to 3 cats into 1. if i understand the rules correctly, you just have to make sure the cat is w/in 6" of the furthest downstream cat (which beats the STS "OE location" rule). so bolt on that AWR header and a high-flow cat.
of course, i have no idea why someone would run a N/A protege in STX....
In STS you have to use the original cat in the original location. STX allows for a single high-flow cat within 6" of the original cat location farthest downstream from the motor (or closest to the rear of the car). Headers are free in STS+.
Yeah, not much point in running an NA Protege in STX when you've got the MSP to play with.
Yeah, not much point in running an NA Protege in STX when you've got the MSP to play with.
).Ok, n00b question: I just noticed (sad, I know...) that the rules allow for the removal / replacement of the FRONT sway bar (not the rear unfortunately). I don't think taking it off completely would be a good idea...hella oversteer? I'm not really sure, cuz I've never really done anything w/ suspension mods, so please correct me if I"m wrong. Since it does allow for replacement, would a smaller bar be a good idea? How would it affect streetability (since this is my daily)? Are there even any options for front bars for the P5?
TIA for the info.
TIA for the info.
I would go with a BIGGER front bar. This will actually REDUCE UNDERSTEER, which it sounds like you are trying to do. It will also allow the car to transition much flatter, and you can attack slaloms like nobody's business.
Because the Pros are a strut type suspension, you loose camber under heavy cornering, a larger front bar allows the suspension to hold the camber longer before it starts to loose it.
If you remove/go smaller with the FSB I think it will just make a mess, the front end is just going to wallow like crazy, and have more oversteer, perhaps, if you can keep the negative camber up front without rolling over on the shoulders of your front tires.
Your alignment and tire pressures are also a very easy (cheap) way to make minor tweaks to how your car will handle, so consider that as well.
Because the Pros are a strut type suspension, you loose camber under heavy cornering, a larger front bar allows the suspension to hold the camber longer before it starts to loose it.
If you remove/go smaller with the FSB I think it will just make a mess, the front end is just going to wallow like crazy, and have more oversteer, perhaps, if you can keep the negative camber up front without rolling over on the shoulders of your front tires.
Your alignment and tire pressures are also a very easy (cheap) way to make minor tweaks to how your car will handle, so consider that as well.
^^^ agreed, esp on a stock-class Protege. justin was running w/out a front bar, but on very high spring rates, which compensated...after all, a swaybar is merely a third spring. IMO, that's the ideal way to go, but not possible in Stock class.
tire pressures can make a big difference, as suggested. i'd recommend lowering the front relative to the rear, but not so low that the shoulders roll over (i.e., still higher than street pressures...maybe 37-40 psi front and 45-48 rear). if you're running r-comps or the "old" 215 Azenis, the stiff sidewalls will give you some more leeway on front pressures.
the bigger front bar will help your grip, but will also increase any corner-exit wheelspin issues you have. that's the tradeoff. removing it will be terrible, IMO; going to the slightly smaller LX/DX bar might work. it depends on what you're looking to improve, and what you're willing to trade to do it.
tire pressures can make a big difference, as suggested. i'd recommend lowering the front relative to the rear, but not so low that the shoulders roll over (i.e., still higher than street pressures...maybe 37-40 psi front and 45-48 rear). if you're running r-comps or the "old" 215 Azenis, the stiff sidewalls will give you some more leeway on front pressures.
the bigger front bar will help your grip, but will also increase any corner-exit wheelspin issues you have. that's the tradeoff. removing it will be terrible, IMO; going to the slightly smaller LX/DX bar might work. it depends on what you're looking to improve, and what you're willing to trade to do it.
and 2 of my encyclopedias finally spoke up 
. Well, if it's gonna increase wheel spin, fughedaboudit, I've got that bad enough as it is (however, I have been practicing NOT just planting my foot in it coming out of corners and rolling onto the gas...smoother = better...). I run azenis 215's, and so far, I've always run higher pressures (5-7ish psi) in the rear, and that has helped a lot in getting a bit of rotation from the rear to get through corners quicker. I also use the "tire marker" trick to check rollover, and adjust accordingly.
I wasn't planning on removing it, I know Justin did that, but like u said, he's got an FSP monster, I've got an HS kitten
Wayne, what u said abt how the bar affects the camber helped a lot, I totally did not know that. So an MSP / MP3 (they're the same if I'm not mistaken) bar would be an option then...man I wish they let us change the rear lol. I'm just concerned that w/ a larger front bar I'd have more understeer...
The biggest thing I'm trying to accomplish is getting a bit more rotation out of the rear end, cuz w/ front drive / stock suspension, it (obviously) understeers a lot.
. Well, if it's gonna increase wheel spin, fughedaboudit, I've got that bad enough as it is (however, I have been practicing NOT just planting my foot in it coming out of corners and rolling onto the gas...smoother = better...). I run azenis 215's, and so far, I've always run higher pressures (5-7ish psi) in the rear, and that has helped a lot in getting a bit of rotation from the rear to get through corners quicker. I also use the "tire marker" trick to check rollover, and adjust accordingly.I wasn't planning on removing it, I know Justin did that, but like u said, he's got an FSP monster, I've got an HS kitten
Wayne, what u said abt how the bar affects the camber helped a lot, I totally did not know that. So an MSP / MP3 (they're the same if I'm not mistaken) bar would be an option then...man I wish they let us change the rear lol. I'm just concerned that w/ a larger front bar I'd have more understeer...
The biggest thing I'm trying to accomplish is getting a bit more rotation out of the rear end, cuz w/ front drive / stock suspension, it (obviously) understeers a lot.
Like I said, it may actually REDUCE understeer with a bigger bar. The WRX is the same way (I used to drive one). I drove one with a much larger front bar and stock rear and the car was actually more neutral, since you are able to maintain more front grip. Remember, understeer is the loss of front traction.
Wheelspin coming out of corners: Modulate the throttle, and with FWD, and sometimes AWD, try "sawing" the wheel back and forth a little (only about 3-5degrees). Each time you straighten the wheel, you gain a little more traction, then you can go back to turning. It's hard to explain, but you do it very quickly and only a little bit.
Also, if you can apex alot later and "square-off" the corner, you will be pointed straighter sooner, thus allowing you to be on the throttle more aggressively.
If you plan on staying in stock class, get the RB front bar. You can also lower your rear pressures to acheive a more progressive oversteer. The tire flexes at the sidewall, thus losing traction, really high rear pressures will normally result in more of a snap oversteer characteristic.
Wheelspin coming out of corners: Modulate the throttle, and with FWD, and sometimes AWD, try "sawing" the wheel back and forth a little (only about 3-5degrees). Each time you straighten the wheel, you gain a little more traction, then you can go back to turning. It's hard to explain, but you do it very quickly and only a little bit.
Also, if you can apex alot later and "square-off" the corner, you will be pointed straighter sooner, thus allowing you to be on the throttle more aggressively.
If you plan on staying in stock class, get the RB front bar. You can also lower your rear pressures to acheive a more progressive oversteer. The tire flexes at the sidewall, thus losing traction, really high rear pressures will normally result in more of a snap oversteer characteristic.
Ok, cool. Well, I like how the car handled the higher tire pressure in the rear, I don't really have any complaints w/ that. Some ppl don't like it, some do.
Anyway, I think after I get the ol tax return, I'm gonna invest in some better suspension components lol. Would the bigger bar necessitate changing the struts? I don't really wanna do that til I have to, seems like a waste lol
I'll have to try that "sawing" motion at the next race and see how that works.
Anyway, I think after I get the ol tax return, I'm gonna invest in some better suspension components lol. Would the bigger bar necessitate changing the struts? I don't really wanna do that til I have to, seems like a waste lol
I'll have to try that "sawing" motion at the next race and see how that works.
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Hmmmmmmmm *strokey beard* I'll have to see what I can do. Ok, I'm done junking up this thread, can some1 pm me a good place to buy one of these? And yes, I'm gonna go poke my head in the FS section every now and then. Thanks so much for the info guys. I really appreciate it.
apexlater said:
^^^good advice. i think the tradeoff w/ the RB bar would be worth it. and your wheelspin problem isn't as bad on the less-sticky falkens as it otherwise would be.
plus, improving in transitions is always a good idea, esp with those pesky MINIs running around!
i can vouch for the different effects of higher vs. lower pressures in the rear; on the stock suspension and R's i found the higher pressures to work better for me, but on my STS suspension and Falkens, the lower pressures (~25psi) feels better (i.e., more progressive, just as described).
edit: there was a thread around here somewhere listing the p/n for the swaybar kit (bushings, endlinks, and all). also, MM is your friend...if you're not a member, you should be.
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I hate those things...that, and this 1 guy's CRX Si...that guy's a machine lol. And yes! Some1 agrees w/ medmitrik4 said:
. Yeah, it's not so much wheel spin as wheel hop, and like I said earlier (and a long while ago lol), that's just something I need to learn, and am learning how, to deal w/ better.I did notice that the P5 was sorta sloppy in quick transitions (like the slaloms), so anything that helps w/ that would be a great improvement.
