NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

[mazdaspeed777]

For anyone in this race still in need of some high comp pistons I am selling some right now, let me know if your interested:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3920872&posted=1#post3920872

 

[LordWorm]

The sad thing is I didnt even try searching for an 'off the shelf' part that would work...

oh well, something to look forward to in a year or so when you tear it down again afterall, whats the point in doing everything at once? then there'd be nothing to play with later

 

[BinoMP5]

what would u say would add more torque and throttle response? i really got into AutoX these past couple of months... i have a 421 header that i put in that really gave me some oomph in the low mid RPMs... the courses that i ran barely had straightaways that really let me open up... chicanes,sweepers, and slolelms mostly that keep me in the mid RPMs... if u mess with the air/fuel ratio, will that put more oomph in the lower rpm? would that mean sacrificing high end power?

 

[niky]

Nope. If you've got a chip that'll do both air/fuel and ignition, you can see a lot of gain at low rpms AND a gain at high rpms. The problem is, you've got to skirt around reprogramming in the closed-loop portion of the powerband (part-throttle at 3000 rpm and under). If you change absolutely anything there, the car will run weird in cold conditions or on the highway, as any change in closed-loop affects the long-term fuel trim. No way around it except to clamp the O2 sensor to keep the car from adjusting (you could unplug, but that leads to CELs on OBDII cars).

A fuel and ignition controller should give you a good 10-15 ponies midrange and 5-10 up top if you've got the right exhaust. Any other power-adders (non-forced induction) beyond your basic Intake-headers-exhaust and chip, such as straight-pipes, cams, port-and-polishing, etcetera... will start to ask you whether you want to sacrifice low rpm torque for that extra pep up top. But properly designed cam gears should limit the compromise with cams by allowing you to move the powerband back down.

Ever think about new wheels? A good lightweight 15" wheel and smaller tires will give you lots more punch out of those slow 1st gear corners.

 

[i like speed]

I read somewhere that getting rid of 10 pounds of "unsprung" weight (the wheels, tires, and certain parts of the suspension) is the equivilant of 100 pounds of weight reduction. It can start to get expensive but at least you can keep your interior lol. Not to mention the lower ratio from smaller tires.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

So..... I just saw that ProtegeGarage is selling Forged built 2.3's with option for 14:1 to comp pistons.

 

[BinoMP5]

yea i saw those too when i was thinking of trading my car in for the new 3s... it seems like it would be easier to hit 230whp with the MZRs, no? but im sure once u start messing with the internals of the FS-DE it would be a different motor...
is it possible to have vtec like cams custom made? like i mean constant vtec, TODA CAMS!!... for track only cars.... im sure that'll bring in some torque... the vtec lobes on the cams are activated by oil pressure mostly, i think, so is it possible to have the vtec-like lobes made? the valves stay open longer, but faster at the same time and lots and lots of fuel get shot in... not the best gas saver but i would think it would bring in a lot of power... im also sure it will require countless of hours of tuning

 

[niky]

So far as I know... there's no aftermarket VTEC... you can probably try to adapt VTEC to your car... you just need a controller and a cam system... but in that case, you might as well swap in a K20 for all the money it'd cost you to change the valvetrain on an FSDE.

 

[LordWorm]

ARGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

VTEC is nothing special guys. Its just 2 cam profiles. Its a PIECE OF CAKE to put a monster set of cams (like "constant vtec") in your motor. I've done it. Anyone with Twiggy cams has done it.

VTEC doesn't magically give you more power. The theory is that it gives you better DRIVABILITY - by allowing a small set of cams to operate at low RPM, followed by a monster set of cams for high RPM operation. Its a piece of cake to put monster cams in.

as for "adapting" vtec, or any other variable cam system to the FS? sure if you had an unlimited budget....but if it means that much to you, just go buy a honda - it'd be cheaper.

 

[BinoMP5]

constant vtec is what i was trying to say... i was just checking if it was possible for the FSDE and it is! i dont want the whole vtec set up where it kicks in at high rpms... i want these monster cams that kick in all the time... hmm...i was just using honda's variable valve timing as an example... twiggy cams... to make custom monster cams, do i have to get another set of cams for the shop to work on? or do they make it from "scratch"?
plus i wouldnt buy a Honda... as amazing as everyone makes them to be, i'm a Mazda-only kind of guy now after doing autoXs... watching all those miatas RXs and 3s tear up the course while the Honda guys couldnt keep up was really fun to watch... it was probably just the drivers who werent good, the big shiny wheels and loud exhaust didnt help them too much...
i really want to purchase another P5 or a MX6 in the future and swap in a KL-ZE and make it a track-only car... and no i have not forgotten about that crazy motor... i'm piecing all the parts for the KL still, slowly but surely!!!

 

[LordWorm]

Bino: then its not VTEC at all. Monster cams have been around longer than VTEC has.

To get real big monster cams, custom billets are the way to go.

Variable valve timing is a completly different beast to variable cam profiles. VVT advances the cam timing dynamically as the revs raise (essentially doing what adjustable cam gears do, only doing it on the fly) - variable cam profiles actually shift the cams to a bigger set of lobes, providing increased lift and duration.

 

[niky]

Delphi is actually marketing a variable valve timing system... but I don't know if you can buy it if you're not a corporate buyer... they call it variable pahsing, and it allows you to change advance or retard on the fly.

So you can have crazy cam timing at the top end without worry of complete non-functionality at idle.

Of course... to heck with that... just cut a window in your cam cover so you can set it for crazy power at the track, then change the timing back for the drive home.

 

[BinoMP5]

Bino: then its not VTEC at all. Monster cams have been around longer than VTEC has.

To get real big monster cams, custom billets are the way to go.

Variable valve timing is a completly different beast to variable cam profiles. VVT advances the cam timing dynamically as the revs raise (essentially doing what adjustable cam gears do, only doing it on the fly) - variable cam profiles actually shift the cams to a bigger set of lobes, providing increased lift and duration.

awesome... as u said, VTEC is not that special... i would have to get a standalone and HC pistons to run these cams efficiently, huh? and if we bore to let's say 2.3 (is that possible with FS-DE?), we would have to go to 230whp... would it be harder to hit that? or since it's still a FSDE it's going to be pretty hard to get up there...

Of course... to heck with that... just cut a window in your cam cover so you can set it for crazy power at the track, then change the timing back for the drive home.

sounds pretty ideal... change the timing with cam gears im assumin

now i'm just looking for shops in central or north florida... more likely Orlando, who will make some for me... pistons, rods, and cams... so if anybody knows of one, let me know...

and could u possibly tell me which of thses pistons would be best? options they gave me were: Forged, Teflon coated, Cast Aluminum,and Hypereutectic
Cam Options were: Stock, RV, High-Performance, Roller ... obviously high performance

and any tips and lingo for when i talk to them so i dont sound dumb or get tricked into something... what do i say? i want bigger lobes on the cams??

 

[jimmysuite]

so stock rods are 135.2mm long i dont see how sr20 rods (136.3mm) would benefit that much except for extra beefiness. I think i have read somewhere that 6mm longer rods (correct me if im wrong) are doable with well designed custom pistons (decreasing land areas and reducing compression height) and without destroking the fsde

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

according to Crossover.net stock length is 5.315" = 5.315"/.040"= 132.875mm

So there would be a bigger bump in rod ratio. Stock 1.44 to the SR20 1.48

But how much higher could bump up the red line with this?

 

[twilightprotege]

to answer that, find out the rod ratio of the honda b18c and what they can rev to. that'll give you some good ideas...

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Is there a theoretical formula for rod ratio/RPMs...........................

B18C 1.58rr They also have a shorter stroke of 87.2mm vs our 92mm. and longer rods. So how do the 2 compare?...................

stock rev limit 8200rpms...........

Doing some cross multiplying( I think its the right way to figure it out)
That would put us at about 7700 RPMs safely? <<<<notice the question mark(dunno)

 

[twilightprotege]

the only thing really limiting rod ratio and rpms is the speed of the fuel burn (assuming the engine can handle it). there's only so far you can go before the pistons out accelarate the burn front and the engine rev any faster.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Sport bikes push into the mid-teens

But all in all a higher ratio is gonna mean less stress on the rotating assembly right?

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

Ha if you go by the standard of what the B18C can do in stock form the KL rev limit should be 9400rpms.