NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

@LordWorm: RE: rods... what rods do you know of? Am looking for a cheap solution (because the rest of my build is expensive).

I know SR20DE rods fit, but my bud had a problem with the bearings. One of the guys thinks it's because they torqued them to FSDE specs, and not SR20 specs... opinions?

Because brand new SR20DE rods are a sight cheaper than importing aftermarket pieces.... and I could always check to see if SR18 or SR20VE rods can give us a better stroke.

EDIT: Oh, and SR20VE pistons... would make for a really incredible ghetto NA build if they fit correctly.
someone else found the SR20 rods work eh? :P yeah they give you a good jump in rod ratio - enough to safely support 7500+ rpm, depending on the quality of the rod (obviously a moly billet SR20 rod will put up with more - say edging on 8000rpm - than a forged steel eagle rod for the same motor).

Remember, despite what people think POWER doesn't kill rods in an NA engine, its RPM that kills them. A rod rated for 600hp at 7000rpm is liable to fly apart at 9000rpm and a fraction of the power - piston acceleration means that the forces applied increase astronomically with an increase in RPM - all that force has to go somewhere (at its most basic, force = mass x acceleration - but rod angularity also plays a part)

mods ARE needed for SR20 rods. From memory, the big end needs machining, and the FSDE racebearings need to be fitted (might need to take a few thou out of the big end to get it in spec - not 100% sure though). Beauty is that you have LOADS of choice when it comes to rods to suit an SR20 - rods to suit the FSDE are few and far between.

Rods wont affect stroke....the ONLY destroke method you've got up your sleeve for cheap is the FPDE crank shaft - with custom rods and pistons (check some of the honda rods out...if memory serves, the K24A rods will work with some serious coaxing on the 1.8L crank with custom pistons)
 
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sr20 rods are an option (shhhh - and it's an easy mod), but i have better again, which LW knows about ;)


yes...but yours are NOT so easy to get in..... at least not last time i talked to the engineer about it...race bearings will be a bit of a s***.

and i meant 7500rpm in my post above, not 7500hp *eeek*
 
You guys are giving me more reasons to open up my motor again in a few years....

EDIT: Maybe I should just move over there so I can share the inside information. Any chemical engineering positions open locally??
 
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You guys are giving me more reasons to open up my motor again in a few years....
we do our best...
EDIT: Maybe I should just move over there so I can share the inside information. Any chemical engineering positions open locally??

you'd have to start from scratch though.... we drive on the CORRECT side of the road....so you couldn't bring your P5 with you :P
 
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once i have enough money (haha that might be a while) i was going to have K1 build a custom destroked crank for me, i was thinking 89mm or 90mm. And along with that getting a set of pauter titanium long rods like 5.400" or maybe even longer. My hopes will be that by doing this i will be able to get better rod ratio and slow down the piston speed a bit.
 
once i have enough money (haha that might be a while) i was going to have K1 build a custom destroked crank for me, i was thinking 89mm or 90mm. And along with that getting a set of pauter titanium long rods like 5.400" or maybe even longer. My hopes will be that by doing this i will be able to get better rod ratio and slow down the piston speed a bit.

thing is, with the KLZE, the valve train will give up long before you start stressing standard length forged rods through RPM. 9000rpm isn't out of the question on the KLZE, they are a beast of a motor for revs... Theres little need to destroke, let alone stretch the rod length out. Of course you can - but short of some extensive work to the valve train, you're going to be thrashing the hell out of lifters before you start being able to use the extra capability.

KLZE is a monster engine straight off the bat. Getting the FSDE to run like that NA is akin to polishing a turd..... no matter how shiney it gets, its still a turd :P - 100hp/L NA with a KLZE = WAY easier than 100hp/L with FSDE
 
thing is, with the KLZE, the valve train will give up long before you start stressing standard length forged rods through RPM. 9000rpm isn't out of the question on the KLZE, they are a beast of a motor for revs... Theres little need to destroke, let alone stretch the rod length out. Of course you can - but short of some extensive work to the valve train, you're going to be thrashing the hell out of lifters before you start being able to use the extra capability.

KLZE is a monster engine straight off the bat. Getting the FSDE to run like that NA is akin to polishing a turd..... no matter how shiney it gets, its still a turd :P - 100hp/L NA with a KLZE = WAY easier than 100hp/L with FSDE

I was reffering to the FSDE sorry for the confusion. My setup will be FI and I probablly wont be reving over 7500 rpms, my main concerns was the piston speed.
 
I was reffering to the FSDE sorry for the confusion. My setup will be FI and I probablly wont be reving over 7500 rpms, my main concerns was the piston speed.

Blargh.... my bad...missread your post...thought i saw "KLZE" but didn't...

dropping the stroke is the way to go to curb piston speed, but FI, its probably not a biggy given that you are not going to be spinning the engine at astromical RPM. Most guys get away with the pauter rods on the stock crank.

In fact, for FI, displacement is king. The more you can have the better - because your swept volume will go up due to positive pressure - so you don't need to spin the engine off its nuts to get the swept volume that you need.

Longer rods wont affect piston speed either, piston speed will be the same for a given stroke regardless of rod length. Rod length affects angularity, and acceleration (and its acceleration that will kill the rods as quick as you can blink).

Another thing to consider for an FI build is detonation - short rod ratios = more resistance to detonation. Thats not to say you cant long rod a turbo car, infact a lot of factory turbo cars have better rod ratios than we do - but you will need to build some insurance against detonation into your build if you stretch the rods - such as lower compression, and higher quality fuel...perhaps even water/meth injection. Then theres the flow consideration - Kooldino has posted many things over the years about the complete LACK of flow in the head of our motors - which will be the brick wall for any power goal.
 
Found a 9,000rpm KLZE on youtube. Rubbish video, but the noise... the NOISE!!! OH YEAH. Gimme some of that!
 
How much are race-bearings? And who do I get them from?

Basically, I take the SR-rods and machine them so they don't fit so tight? That makes sense, given the way the bearings finally gave in my bud's motor.

An FPDE crank would be cool, but I don't have a local source, and I want the build to be as simple as possible (IF I go in this direction).

Right now, we're looking at how much the FS-ZE can make, chipped. I'm wagering it'll make about as much as I'm making, maybe more. Then the porting guy is willing to do the intake manifold. Will try to get the FS-ZE guy to bring his 626 mani and his stock FS-DE mani so we can compare everything and I can decide which one to have ported. Port-guy basically wants to remove the VICS and rework the manifold to remove the flow turbulence that the whole shebang induces at high rpm, but if we can get enough flow out of the 626 manifold, we'll use this instead. Currently stuck in the 170-180 bhp range, exactly where I wanted to be when we started.

I know this is ground covered by other people, but most people here do it for FI, without much in the way of NA numbers. At the very least, it'll be fun to find out.

Can't eke out much more without high compression, high revs and bigger valves (though this last part is up for debate). If we can get the power curve to hold up to 6500 rpm, we might get within the 190 bhp range at 7000 rpm (which is still relatively safe)... but that's a far cry from 200 whp. It's more like 160-170 whp. From my torque calculations, for 200 whp, we might need at least 8000 rpm to hit 200 whp, and that's only with a perfect matching of cams, intake, exhaust and high compression. At 9000 rpm, it's a certainty that 200 whp can be reached.

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RE: water/meth: a friend just eked out 5 whp with meth-injection and programming. That octane boost only goes so far. But he's got a distributor-type SR20... we might be able to fiddle with the timing even more with our electronic ignitions, giving 3 or 4 more ponies than that..
 
*deep breath - epic post warning....*
How much are race-bearings? And who do I get them from?
rod bearings....whatever you want to call them...nothing special really...

Basically, I take the SR-rods and machine them so they don't fit so tight? That makes sense, given the way the bearings finally gave in my bud's motor.

nope, they machine it so the big end WIDTH is the same as the FSDE rods....
clearences should of course be checked to insure everything is within spec.

An FPDE crank would be cool, but I don't have a local source, and I want the build to be as simple as possible (IF I go in this direction).
look for a wrecked short block - will be easier to get ahold of then the crank on its own funnilly enough - and all the other bits you might need will be there with it :)
Right now, we're looking at how much the FS-ZE can make, chipped. I'm wagering it'll make about as much as I'm making, maybe more. Then the porting guy is willing to do the intake manifold. Will try to get the FS-ZE guy to bring his 626 mani and his stock FS-DE mani so we can compare everything and I can decide which one to have ported. Port-guy basically wants to remove the VICS and rework the manifold to remove the flow turbulence that the whole shebang induces at high rpm, but if we can get enough flow out of the 626 manifold, we'll use this instead. Currently stuck in the 170-180 bhp range, exactly where I wanted to be when we started.
FSZE wont give a GREAT improvement over the DE - everything is the same save for cams (which you've already dealt with), higher comp pistons and a few other odds and ends...the engines are not THAT different.... and its certainly a no better platform one way or another.
Can't eke out much more without high compression, high revs and bigger valves (though this last part is up for debate). If we can get the power curve to hold up to 6500 rpm, we might get within the 190 bhp range at 7000 rpm (which is still relatively safe)... but that's a far cry from 200 whp. It's more like 160-170 whp. From my torque calculations, for 200 whp, we might need at least 8000 rpm to hit 200 whp, and that's only with a perfect matching of cams, intake, exhaust and high compression. At 9000 rpm, it's a certainty that 200 whp can be reached.
Bigger valves are definantly up for question. However, there are plenty of other head mods that can be looked at. For example, noone has looked at playing with the combustion chamber shape and volume. 7000rpm is safe as houses...7500 is where it gets scary. The VE required for the FSDE with stock crank (without taking into account boring the block) to achieve 250 CRANK horsepower at 8000rpm is 121%, assuming 0.50 BSFC. That is unrealistic. It doesn't start becoming realistic until you ramp the revs up to 9000rpm (108% VE) - but thats assuming your peak power occurs at 9000rpm, which without some REDICULOUS head work, its not going to happen. You'll also need some rediculous internals, custom manifolds and so on and so forth.

Of course, if you can get the engine running with a lower BSFC (say, 0.45) things start looking MUCH better...only 97% VE required. with a mere 2mm overbore, that drops to 92%. Push it to the limit with 3mm, and you're well in the realms of plausable with 90% VE @ 9000rpm on the FSDE Crank.

Moving to the FPDE crank means you can support the RPM being talked about without exotic rod materials and so forth - but the VE Requried for the same power goes up (because displacement drops). Lucky for you, the target HP also drops ;)

So whats this all mean? getting 100hp/L at the wheels NA with the FSDE is hard. Damned hard. You need to push the living HELL out of your engine to do it. It can be done. Its not impossible, but off the shelf bits and pieces are really not going to cut it and you're going to have to get wildly experimental to pull it off.

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RE: water/meth: a friend just eked out 5 whp with meth-injection and programming. That octane boost only goes so far. But he's got a distributor-type SR20... we might be able to fiddle with the timing even more with our electronic ignitions, giving 3 or 4 more ponies than that..

water/meth allows you to run leaner (leaner is meaner) with more timing. Its unreal for a FI, and can help with the last few % on an NA car - unfortunatly, water meth injection is illegal in this competition (refer to page one of the thread) ;)
 
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i wonder where installshield2 went. he hit like 197whp wit the fsde. i wonder if he ever hit 200..

he pops up every now and then - the last convo i had he said he was backing the RPM down for safety, so its highly likely he's making less than 197 hp now.

But he's a prime example of just what it takes - insane head work, exotic conrods (made of aluminium for lightness) and custom pistons with monster compression - along with a whole host of other custom built bits of gear.

Bolt on's WILL NOT take you there. Jimmysuite is basically taking the motor to the max on off the shelf goodies so his dyno numbers when he gets them will give you an idea of what all the gear you can get off the shelf does for you - whilst i expect his numbers to be impressive, I really don't think he'll come close to the 200hp goal (and for that matter, he doesn't intend on getting there because he realised very early in the piece just what it was going to cost)
 
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Bolt on's WILL NOT take you there. Jimmysuite is basically taking the motor to the max on off the shelf goodies so his dyno numbers when he gets them will give you an idea of what all the gear you can get off the shelf does for you - whilst i expect his numbers to be impressive, I really don't think he'll come close to the 200hp goal (and for that matter, he doesn't intend on getting there because he realised very early in the piece just what it was going to cost)

I would have considered sr20 rods and forged pistons if I had found out about it eariler!

I'll save that for the next time I tear down the motor.

Is he still using the stock IM

626 IM
 
(epic post) -snip- So whats this all mean? getting 100hp/L at the wheels NA with the FSDE is hard. Damned hard. You need to push the living HELL out of your engine to do it. It can be done. Its not impossible, but off the shelf bits and pieces are really not going to cut it and you're going to have to get wildly experimental to pull it off.

Which makes you wonder what they put in the coffee at Honda that allows a good K20 to get that much, stock. :(

Anyway, I'd already stated that I wasn't in the running for 200 whp, but having gotten to nearly 40 whp over stock, I'd like to go a bit further and see where I end up while still having a streetable driver.

water/meth allows you to run leaner (leaner is meaner) with more timing. Its unreal for a FI, and can help with the last few % on an NA car - unfortunatly, water meth injection is illegal in this competition (refer to page one of the thread) ;)

Damnit... it is? Thread started so long ago, I'd forgotten. What about LPG? That won't come out of the man tank, but I'm going to be running the car 100% on LPG via a dual-fuel system. This ain't for power, but for economy. I'm still reviewing if I can get a liquid kit here that'll allow me safer lean running than otherwise.
 
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