MSP in DS

[Macs MSP]

I'm running DS, but in the street tire class. Mostly because I can't afford race tires, I don't think I am ready to graduate to race tires, and I am scared of getting pwned by the ITRs.

EDIT: Answering questions without posting again so I don't get accused of post whoring.

DS Mods:
Well, I am actually illegal in DS right now, but no one in my region is going to care and I plan on reversing the illegal pieces bit by bit.

1. I have 17mm positive offset over stock, legal limit is 6mm. I didn't even think about it when I bought the rims, so I might sell these and get some 50mm offset wheels next season.

2. AWR front end links. Legal in stock class but I have no clue if they work or not since I never really ran with the stock end links.

3. Stainless brake lines. Illegal in stock class. I am debating if I should pull these off and go back to stock lines. I'm due to change brake fluid next season, so I might go back to stock lines, especially since the SS lines look like crap now.

4. Falken Azenis 615. Great tires for street class, but lacking for DS when everyone else is running R-comps.

5. EBC blank rotors and Greenstuff pads all around. Much better than stock.

6. -1 degree camber front and rear. I'm sure it makes a difference, never knew the alignment specs when I started.

7. AXR clunk fix bracket. Illegal in stock class, but I'll be damned if I have to put up with a design flaw from the factory. If I was going to run nationally I would remove this and replace the stock bushings a few times a season.

The AWR Endlinks are illegal in stock also.

Not to be rude but you still have a lot to learn about stock class. I would recomend not cheating. The reason people don't say anything is because there is an honor system. Autocrossers expect you to be honest and do the right thing.

Look for my DS Build post in a couple weeks. I'll address every rule in stock class.

 

[aMaff]

AWR endlinks on the front are not legal in stock???

 

[livelyjay]

AWR endlinks on the front are not legal in stock???

They are indeed legal as are polyurethane bushings, but only in the front.

 

[livelyjay]

The AWR Endlinks are illegal in stock also.

They are, unless that is what part 4 is addressing:

13.7 ANTI-ROLL (SWAY) BARS
A. For front anti-roll (sway) bars:
4. No modification to the body, frame or other components to
accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed,
except for the drilling of holes for mounting bolts. Nonstandard
lateral members which connect between the brackets
for the bar are not permitted.

Not to be rude but you still have a lot to learn about stock class. I would recomend not cheating. The reason people don't say anything is because there is an honor system. Autocrossers expect you to be honest and do the right thing.

I don't have a lot to learn about stock class, I just forgot about what I have done to the car since it's been a long time since I have done these things and I will slowly bring the car back into legal bounds. I'm not waxing everyone in the street tire class and I am still 4+ seconds slower than people running in real DS, so I'm not that concerned. If I was winning every event and beating times of those in DS, then I would stop competing until I got my car back into a legal state.

Look for my DS Build post in a couple weeks. I'll address every rule in stock class.

I look forward to it.

 

[moxnix]

Front endlinks are part of the front bar allowance and are legal in stock class.

 

[Macs MSP]

Front endlinks are part of the front bar allowance and are legal in stock class.

I'll take the end link thing back... kind of. This is a a non chalanged area so far. I did some investigating and it's more of an accepted thing to do rather than a legal thing to do. Here's a quote from the SCCA Forums:

"Yours is a common question raised by noobies trying to change the front bar (including myself a few years ago). Every experienced stock class autox'r will tell you that the endlink is free and considered part of the bar, but the rules aren't clear on this point. Seems to me they are a different part, but no one protests the front endlink, even when an adjustable endlink is used to replace the fixed stock one. Perhaps a rule book clarification is in order so those who are new to the sport have a clear understanding as to what is allowed in Stock classes."

When I read the rules it looks to me that aftermarket endlinks would be illegal. But hey if this is accepted I'm not going to complain.

Personally I wouldn't stiffen the preload on the front sway bar, I think it would do more harm than good on a DS setup. But I would like to install a set and play around with it and get some data.

 

[moxnix]

How do you attach a sway bar to a car that never had one if you can't add endlinks?

If you can add them to a car as part of installing a ARB why would you not be able to change them when installing a different one?

 

[apexlater]

I never really looked at that. They have a specification that "speedbleeders" may be used, so I wonder why that had to be clarified.

On first blush, it may seem that the front endlinks fall into "if it doesn't say you can do it then you can't".

So why would you add a front sway bar that wasn't originally equipped, use any bushing material, and drill holes for mounting bolts if you cannot add endlinks to connect them to the suspension in some fashion (strut or lower control arm).

Interesting.....

 

[moxnix]

while replacing the WGA on my car I was looking over the instructions (for the stock replacement) and the last instruction caught my eye.

-------------------------
7 Verify/Adjust boost.

- Reconnect Battery cable.
- Connect WDS can tool.
- Run engine to operating temp.
- in a safe area, accelerate in 1st gear while dragging brakes with you left foot.
- Continue opening throttle until it is wide open. Apply brake as needed to control engine rpm at 4,000 rpm.
- Using the snapshot function, record rpm, mass air flow, air inlet temperature, and engine coolant temperature.

The mass airflow should be within g/s specifications of:
Low limit: 90
Target: 95
High limit: 100

If not within specifications, the rod length should be adjusted:

To raise boost, make the actuator rod shorter
To lower boost, make the actuator rod longer

IF ADJUSTMENT IS NECESSARY, REAPPLY ANY TORQUE SEAL TO THE DISTURBED AREAS.
-------------------------

So this gives you a small adjustment in the boost level while still staying stock legal (IMO).

 

[livelyjay]

Personally I wouldn't stiffen the preload on the front sway bar, I think it would do more harm than good on a DS setup. But I would like to install a set and play around with it and get some data.

I haven't played around with adjusting the end links basically because I have no idea what I am doing. My end links are tightened as far as they can go on both sides because I wanted to keep it as close to stock length as I could. The only reason why I bought them was for the stiffness of the link. Same price as stock and the stock links are thinner than a pencil. Figured thicker would allow the sway bar to do it's job marginally faster than with stock links that may flex. Of course I do realize it's not humanly possible to tell the difference unless I played around with the loads on each side.

How do you attach a sway bar to a car that never had one if you can't add endlinks?

That's probably the argument as to why they are "free".

while replacing the WGA on my car I was looking over the instructions (for the stock replacement) and the last instruction caught my eye.
...
So this gives you a small adjustment in the boost level while still staying stock legal (IMO).

Are those instructions in the manual? If so then I would think it is stock legal. Kind of falls into that category where the SRT-4 guy had the camber hole drilling added to the manual. What would getting up to 100g/s give you for boost? Maybe .5 more psi?

EDIT: Would a scanner tool be able to read this? I have an Auterra scan tool that I can use to check the readings of the MAF. I'll consult the FSM to see what voltages mean what for g/s.

 

[moxnix]

Are those instructions in the manual? If so then I would think it is stock legal. Kind of falls into that category where the SRT-4 guy had the camber hole drilling added to the manual. What would getting up to 100g/s give you for boost? Maybe .5 more psi?

EDIT: Would a scanner tool be able to read this? I have an Auterra scan tool that I can use to check the readings of the MAF. I'll consult the FSM to see what voltages mean what for g/s.

I do not have the FSM for the mazdaspeed but the instructions are in the stock WGA install instructions directly from mazda so I am confident they are legal. If you have the actual mazdaspeed FSM please check and confirm. The WGA has been superseded since the car came out but the original stock one was adjustable also and I don't know if it may have had a different spec. I have no idea how much difference we are talking about I was just tossing the data out for discussion.

I do not know if your scanner would be able to read the data needed or not since they instructions are based on the mazda tools.

 

[livelyjay]

I do not have the FSM for the mazdaspeed but the instructions are in the stock WGA install instructions directly from mazda so I am confident they are legal. If you have the actual mazdaspeed FSM please check and confirm. The WGA has been superseded since the car came out but the original stock one was adjustable also and I don't know if it may have had a different spec. I have no idea how much difference we are talking about I was just tossing the data out for discussion.

I do not know if your scanner would be able to read the data needed or not since they instructions are based on the mazda tools.

So original OEM wastegate for the MSP is adjustible? The tools Mazda would use would just be reading the voltage from the MAF, then converting that voltage to a reading of g/s. Unfortunately the regular Protege FSM does not say anything about MAF voltage readings. I'll just hook up my scanner and see what it says.

EDIT: From the Auterra web site on the list of items it can monitor - "Air Flow Rate From MAF indicates the airflow rate as measured by the mass air flow sensor."

 

[moxnix]

So original OEM wastegate for the MSP is adjustible? The tools Mazda would use would just be reading the voltage from the MAF, then converting that voltage to a reading of g/s. Unfortunately the regular Protege FSM does not say anything about MAF voltage readings. I'll just hook up my scanner and see what it says.

Yes the original WasteGate Actuator is adjustable.

 

[livelyjay]

Yes the original WasteGate Actuator is adjustable.

I'll post up the results from my scan tool if I have time to monkey with the WGA this weekend.

 

[Vanimaniac]

So Brian, how was it at Peru?

Looks like a lot of good competition was out there with the Borowski's and all those Canadians. (stooges) Having John Tak codriving must have been helpful!

I'm gonna be codriving in DS next weekend in Milwaukee (I'll be in a Lexus IS300).

See ya then.

Van

 

[Macs MSP]

So Brian, how was it at Peru?

Looks like a lot of good competition was out there with the Borowski's and all those Canadians. (stooges) Having John Tak codriving must have been helpful!

I'm gonna be codriving in DS next weekend in Milwaukee (I'll be in a Lexus IS300).

See ya then.

Van

Peru was great! It was my first National Tour so I was a little on edge the first day so I drove like crap. The second day felt better but afterwards I realized how much fine tuning my driving needs. John drove the car like it's never been driven before, and he's been co-driving all season. The second day he had the car up on two wheels.

The competition was heavy. The Borowski's are so fast in that ITR I have no idea how we are going to get our car to that level. There were a lot of our Detroit region friends out on course while we were running and they were giving us feedback on how different the MSP looked from the ITR. Acceleration was the biggest difference. I was told that the ITR accelerated much quicker that our MSP. It rotates on the concrete better too. We had a big issue at Peru getting the car to rotate on that sticky concrete.

We have some other issues with the MSP. The brakes kept going into "Ice Mode" for both of us, I had wheel spin like crazy (that's one of my driving issues), I felt like the car was slower with the new WGA, and I completely screwed John out of a 3rd place win with fuel starvation. John had fuel issues on his last two laps on Sunday when he was loading the car into the turns (I'm still working on being able to turn the car like John can). I thought we were good with a third of a tank but I was wrong. It got down to just over a quarter and John was getting fuel starvation. From now on we are running a half a tank always.

I'm getting new brake pads today before we go to Milwaukee and some time before Nationals I'm going to get a Koni wet build for the car. John won't be with me this weekend (he didn't want to travel two weeks in a row) but he will be driving the car at Nationals.

I'll see you in Milwaukee, looking forward to meeting you.

Brian

 

[apexlater]

(snip)We have some other issues with the MSP. The brakes kept going into "Ice Mode" for both of us, I had wheel spin like crazy (that's one of my driving issues), (/snip)
Brian

You need to treat the ABS just like it was a lock-up in a car without ABS. It's all about threshold braking, but only in dry.

Glad to hear you are learning alot about the car and your competition!

 

[livelyjay]

I'll post up the results from my scan tool if I have time to monkey with the WGA this weekend.

I won't be scanning anything in my MSP for at least another week. I hit a deer on Thursday night. At least I get a new paint job for the front of the car.

 

[Macs MSP]

You need to treat the ABS just like it was a lock-up in a car without ABS. It's all about threshold braking, but only in dry.

Glad to hear you are learning alot about the car and your competition!

It's not a normal ABS issue, I wish it was that easy. Because of the brake pads and the r-compound tires the ABS is kicking in prematurely. I even had issues when trail braking. I think it's the pads and I'm having them swapped out today for soemthing different before we go to Milwaukee. I'm crossing my fingers.

Milwaukee is just another learning experience to work our way to Nationals. All that matters is a trophy position at Nationals.

 

[apexlater]

If the "ice-mode" is the same as most cars, then when you lift a tire while braking and the ABS senses a zero traction situation it releases all brake pressure to try and regain traction. Is that what you are experiencing? If so, then going with a really weak rear pad may help.

Still, learning to threshold brake should be on your to-do list.