MSP in DS

[xelderx]

^^^^^


Do it! The Konis feel so good.

 

[Macs MSP]

No I never said that.. I know that the Koni insert will not be legal for DS. You need to get a custom wet build. Which will take out your exisiting internals and put Koni internals. The shafts would be cut to stock length, you would retain the stock spring perch height... Instead of a Tockio Strut, you woudl have a Koni Strut.

I didn't say you said that I said that you didn't realize that, which I don't think you did at the time I spoke with you. You may know now, but at the time I had to find that out from Koni on my own. You told me at the time that you just insert the whole Koni shock, which is what I thought you did on your coilovers. If you can now do a wet build that's great.

I still don't know how you are going to make the fronts work. You stated that you will cut the shafts to stock length but the problem is that they are too short. You would have to make it longer.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I didn't say you said that I said that you didn't realize that, which I don't think you did at the time I spoke with you. You may know now, but at the time I had to find that out from Koni on my own. You told me at the time that you just insert the whole Koni shock, which is what I thought you did on your coilovers. If you can now do a wet build that's great.

I still don't know how you are going to make the fronts work. You stated that you will cut the shafts to stock length but the problem is that they are too short. You would have to make it longer.

The end result you will get a Koni that will be equal to stock length period.

 

[Macs MSP]

The end result you will get a Koni that will be equal to stock length period.

No offense to you Jeff, but you know how they say a few bad apples spoil the bunch? Well I've been burned a couple times lately from others saying the same thing. I am tripple checking everything now. If you're right, your fabrication will be a lot cheaper than another route I was going to take. You're going to have to explane to me how you are going to do this before I do it though. I can call you or e-mail you about it later.

I thought DS was going to be the easier cheeper way to go this year instead of STX but it's turning out to be a lot more than I thought. Everything has been trial and error.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

No offense to you Jeff, but you know how they say a few bad apples spoil the bunch? Well I've been burned a couple times lately from others saying the same thing. I am tripple checking everything now. If you're right, your fabrication will be a lot cheaper than another route I was going to take. You're going to have to explane to me how you are going to do this before I do it though. I can call you or e-mail you about it later.

I thought DS was going to be the easier cheeper way to go this year instead of STX but it's turning out to be a lot more than I thought. Everything has been trial and error.

Basically we would take another OTS Koni Strut, the longest ones are BMW's. Adapat the Koni Gland Nut to the Stock Struts, Cut or limit the droop (if theres enough clearance) the piston rod to the stock length, revalve the struts for X amount of force and volia. You have a stock lengthed Protege Koni Strut. BTW, I would recommend DA's.

 

[Shadow102]

Basically we would take another OTS Koni Strut, the longest ones are BMW's. Adapat the Koni Gland Nut to the Stock Struts, Cut or limit the droop (if theres enough clearance) the piston rod to the stock length, revalve the struts for X amount of force and volia. You have a stock lengthed Protege Koni Strut. BTW, I would recommend DA's.

*drool* me want lol i guess that k-sports will have to last for the time being

 

[Macs MSP]

Basically we would take another OTS Koni Strut, the longest ones are BMW's. Adapat the Koni Gland Nut to the Stock Struts, Cut or limit the droop (if theres enough clearance) the piston rod to the stock length, revalve the struts for X amount of force and volia. You have a stock lengthed Protege Koni Strut. BTW, I would recommend DA's.

I would definitely go with the double adjustable. It's too bad you couldn't fabricate an adjustable remote gas pressure reservoir while your at it, I really want one of those.

 

[Gobbracing]

Camber bolts are fine for STX but they are illegal in DS.

Another shock issue is the rear. There is not one aftermarket shock on the market that is DS legal for the MSP. Every aftermarket shock made for the Protege has a spring perch that is 3/4" lower than stock. That is also illegal in DS.

I'm just full of great news aren't I!

Good to know. It will avoid me making the discovery if I went that way.
And don't worry for the camber bolts, I bough them to run STX. I still have my OEMs for the winter and DS.

 

[122 Vega]

Thanks for posting about this. I was very curious about that car. It's good to know that the MSP may be intimidating to other DS drivers on the National level.

I'm a little curious how you are going to run more than 1deg negative camber when there's no way to do it with the stock settings.

What shocks are you thinking of running? It seems like no one else except me has run on anything but stock shocks. I'm going through a bit of trial and error but I'll have some good info about half way through the season I'm thinking.

A few days after I bought my car I had my brother do an alignment and ended up with -1.4 in the front without bolts. I also still had IIRC +2.4 caster. Completely stock. I also think Morris is getting -1.1 or -1.2 on his car which is stock except for his air filter.

Britt

 

[122 Vega]

I think an MSP has a MUCH better chance of beating an ITR in DS than an STX WRX.
Locally, sure. anything can happen. But as many of you know, nationals is a totally different story.

And no, i am not one of those who thinks you have to have only a certain car to win. Like i said, i think that a well setup DS MSP has a great chance to win DS on the national level.
But in STX? Those WRXs put down something like 240 to the WHEELS with an STX fuel map. Plus with the class-legal suspension upgrades, they can handle significantly better than from the factory.

Jeff, Britt, and others-- I totally support what you are doing campaigning an MSP in STX. I know you guys have put alot of time and effort into those cars. I'm an MSP owner! Of course i'd love to see the car do well in as many classes as possible. I was merely pointing out that imo, it would be easiest (cheapest, etc) to run the car in DS.

Sorry Dave - I just had to add another STX point. After a discussion with a WRX owner in STU at the Nat Tour I have done a lot of research regarding true "whp" on STX "legal" WRXs. What he said is turning out to be true for the most part - STX legal WRXs cannot be putting out that kind of power with class legal mods. The problem lies within the EUC/PCM rule. There is no way to police boost alterations, which are PCM controlled on the WRXs. Also I have found that some local WRXs that do run National events are in fact running 18-20psi.

Point #2 My car in San Diego weighed almost 600lbs lighter than the class winner. Add that to the mix. (BTW it was 2710 with me in it / 160 lbs currently) and if you look at overall results (considering persistant mechanical issues) I ended up 12.9 seconds off the lead in the final results.

Point #3 growing pains? Good word for it. I called it a few more colorful words!

Britt

 

[chris1866]

Over here everybody knows that a MSP can beat a Type R. Since 2005 we have seen a bone stock MSP edging a fully prepped Type R, both running Hoosiers and having co-drivers.

I myself did that very thing in ProDS last weekend. The ITR was fully prepped and my MSP is bone stock (with heavier-than-oem wheels!!) (hey--i'm on a budget here, lol).
got him by about 2 tenths.

I am really confident in the MSP the more i drive it (it was only my second ever event on R-comps) Who knows what it is capable of with a proper setup.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I agree with you with ECU/PCM not being able to police boost, but I truely think that majority of the top guys are not changing boost. Obviously I'm not 100% sure though but i have a good idea.

Our MSP's are not even close to 600lbs lighter, a stock WRX weighs 3085 and obviously ligtened we are talking maybe the 2900lbs or so. So 400lbs at most is really what the magic # is.

I run against our SD Tour Competition practically every month and as I tune my suspension, I get closer. Keep in mine i've only been doing this for about 4 months so my driving skills have A LOT of improvement still.

Last event on May 5th, I was only 1.5 seconds away from the STX national car. Also adding on top of that, my runs were ran when it started to drizzle. This last weekend I ran on overheated Falkens and I was about 1 sec away from the second place guy at the SD National tour that was running on brand new bridgestones...

I have yet to get the car fully prepped, I still need to add an XEDE, and a tubular manifold and even tuning the suspension.

Speak for yourself, this car itself with me driving it, is already 2 -3 seconds back total at a national event with me driving in it. With a great driver like Ken Montinishi, you got yourself a contender for 1st. Oh I forgot, add in the yokohamas...

Sorry Dave - I just had to add another STX point. After a discussion with a WRX owner in STU at the Nat Tour I have done a lot of research regarding true "whp" on STX "legal" WRXs. What he said is turning out to be true for the most part - STX legal WRXs cannot be putting out that kind of power with class legal mods. The problem lies within the EUC/PCM rule. There is no way to police boost alterations, which are PCM controlled on the WRXs. Also I have found that some local WRXs that do run National events are in fact running 18-20psi.

Point #2 My car in San Diego weighed almost 600lbs lighter than the class winner. Add that to the mix. (BTW it was 2710 with me in it / 160 lbs currently) and if you look at overall results (considering persistant mechanical issues) I ended up 12.9 seconds off the lead in the final results.

Point #3 growing pains? Good word for it. I called it a few more colorful words!

Britt

 

[122 Vega]

Ok Jeff, WRX without driver = 3085 by your statement (not what I was told by a STX prepped WRX that was weighed on the same scales, the same day as my car but we'll go with your numbers, 2900 = wishful thinking I was told)

My MSP with driver 2710 with driver and half tank of gas (WRX had 1/4 tank) Remember your car weighed 2750ish without driver, and you weighed 220 lbs. Race cars should be weighed as raced. So your MSP is near 3000.

I weigh about 160 (and willing to bet I was the lightest in STX), so...

2710-160=2550

3085-2550=535 pounds. is that close enough for you?

Like it matters, my problems were beyond weight issues, but the MSP is obviously lighter than the WRX by your numbers or mine.

If I had only a 1/4 tank of gas, geez, I bet it'd be close enough to round up to 600 for the sake of a simple arguement, especially one in a DS thread.

By your arguement, if you just legally lightened your car to what mine weighs, had all available legal power mods, you'd be schooling all the National level peers you run with.

BTW, I was speaking for myself.

Britt

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I'm still having a hard time understanding your #'s

Stock WRX = 3085lbs

Lets just say a fully prepped WRX weights 3085lbs w/ driver

Your car at 2710 w/ Driver

3085-2710 = 375lbs

Where are you getting 600lbs?

Ok Jeff, WRX without driver = 3085 by your statement (not what I was told by a STX prepped WRX that was weighed on the same scales, the same day as my car but we'll go with your numbers, 2900 = wishful thinking I was told)

My MSP with driver 2710 with driver and half tank of gas (WRX had 1/4 tank) Remember your car weighed 2750ish without driver, and you weighed 220 lbs. Race cars should be weighed as raced. So your MSP is near 3000.

I weigh about 160 (and willing to bet I was the lightest in STX), so...

2710-160=2550

3085-2550=535 pounds. is that close enough for you?

Like it matters, my problems were beyond weight issues, but the MSP is obviously lighter than the WRX by your numbers or mine.

If I had only a 1/4 tank of gas, geez, I bet it'd be close enough to round up to 600 for the sake of a simple arguement, especially one in a DS thread.

By your arguement, if you just legally lightened your car to what mine weighs, had all available legal power mods, you'd be schooling all the National level peers you run with.

BTW, I was speaking for myself.

Britt

 

[moxnix]

Back to DS (Warning on topic post here)

The 2006 WRX TR model in stock trim (1/3 tank fuel, Stock shocks, Whiteline Front Bar, SPT wheels, Victoracer tires, No spare, Removed floor mats, No Driver) weighs in at 3,025lbs.
This would be one of the the lightest weight 2.5L WRX but I would assume the 2.0L could be lighter? Does anybody have any true weights for the stock/DS Prepped MSP?

 

[122 Vega]

Morris' car weighed in at Atwater 2006 at 2720 without driver, 1/4 tank of gas, Team Dynamics Proracer 1 wheels and I think at the time he was still on Kumhos, he's on Hoosiers now and they are lighter by a few.

Britt

 

[Macs MSP]

Morris' car weighed in at Atwater 2006 at 2720 without driver, 1/4 tank of gas, Team Dynamics Proracer 1 wheels and I think at the time he was still on Kumhos, he's on Hoosiers now and they are lighter by a few.

Britt

I'll get some wieght messurements on this but if you take that weight and subtract all the exhaust parts I pulled off the car. I'm running a 3" SS pipe coming off the cats and exitting about mid passenger rear door, no muffler. Maybe 30-40lbs. Aldo for nationals we will be using Kosei K1TS wheels with Hoosiers.

We went head to head with the 5th place SRT4 ACR on Sunday. John was about 1 second off from him (Steve Baumbach). After looking at the DL1 data he figured he could of got another 3-5/10ths more out of his best run if it was perfect. I was 4/10s behind John (I drove too slow). We were having issues with the ABS kicking in way too early. We are going to be playing around with different pads over the next couple races to hopefully fix the horrible MSP ABS setup. (pissed)

We still have a lot of adjustments to do to the car. It's not even close to how we should have it set up for Nationals.

Brian

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I'll get some wieght messurements on this but if you take that weight and subtract all the exhaust parts I pulled off the car. I'm running a 3" SS pipe coming off the cats and exitting about mid passenger rear door, no muffler. Maybe 30-40lbs. Aldo for nationals we will be using Kosei K1TS wheels with Hoosiers.

We went head to head with the 5th place SRT4 ACR on Sunday. John was about 1 second off from him (Steve Baumbach). After looking at the DL1 data he figured he could of got another 3-5/10ths more out of his best run if it was perfect. I was 4/10s behind John (I drove too slow). We were having issues with the ABS kicking in way too early. We are going to be playing around with different pads over the next couple races to hopefully fix the horrible MSP ABS setup. (pissed)

We still have a lot of adjustments to do to the car. It's not even close to how we should have it set up for Nationals.

Brian

ahh, Steve Baumbach, we revalved his Koni Strut Inserts for him. Steve Wynne has the same exact setup.

ABS Kicking in straight line braking?

The only way I've fixed the ABS issue was by removing the fuse. However I'm getting slight lock up, I'm still playing with pad compounds. What pad compound are you using?

 

[xelderx]

Use stock rear pads and then a good autoX front pad. That is how I balanced my Pro5 with the ABS fuse pulled.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

Use stock rear pads and then a good autoX front pad. That is how I balanced my Pro5 with the ABS fuse pulled.

What pad are you using in the front?

I was thinking about trying the R4S.