MS3@ Geneva 06.
- Thread starter RODSCALIP5
- Start date
- Status
dmitrik4 said:well said.
and let's be honest...90% of the people here would only drive the car on the street anyway, and if you're reaching the limits of a car like the MS3 on a public road, you're an *****. none of us are driving in situations where FWD itself is THAT big of a limitation. like someone said before, it's an economy car, not a ferrari.
if you're going to keep pounding on the torque steer argument, at least spell it correctly.
LOL I hope you're kidding. Last time I checked, spelling accuracy isn't (or at least shouldn't be) one of the top concerns for fellow forum readers. As long as the message gets out, that's all that matters. As far as me "pounding" on the torque steer argument... don't belittle the fact that this is a concern. Critics complained about the TS on the 170 hp msp. That car has a LSD so what's another 70+hp going to do? make it less of an issue? I'm not saying they can't figure a way around it... but whatever time/money put into THAT could have/should have been put into making it (something else I've been "pounding on") awd.
anarchistchiken said:
Ferrari??? wtf are you talking about? Since Ferraris aren't exactly known for awd (do any even have it?) I'm assuming you're talking about exotics in general. so... I guess you're saying only exotics can have awd? lol hmm.... yeah, u lost me there. Anyway, has this $23k figure even been released yet? If not, let's not speculate. While I agree, it'll probably be "around there", unless Mazda's released official pricing, there's no way to know for sure. We can certainly make some reasonable estimates though. I just went on to carsdirect.com (great website btw) and loaded up a 3 wagon with most of the options they listed, (no AT) except for the nav. Sticker? $23k and change. Do it yourself if you don't believe me. Obviously most savvy consumers can automatically knock a couple grand off the sticker on most cars, but to be fair (and compare apples to apples) the current top of the line 3 seems to be priced at the same pricepoint you're setting the (superior in every way) new mazdaspeed version. Something just doesn't add up. I did some research and found that the 2003 mazda protege es stickered for about $17k while the msp was around $19.5k That's a sizeable enough difference between the two cars to place them in the proper pecking order. Obviously it wouldn't be wise on Mazda's part to offer the 3 and the MS3 for the same price. Based on my very limited research, Mazda will either have to lower the pricing on the 3 or sticker the ms3 closer to 25k. While this may seem a bit outlandish, if this car truly is going to compete with the likes of the GLI ($25k easy) I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility. Again, we're talkin sticker here. But enough about price.... for now at least.
anarchistchiken said:
I'll give you a half a point there. While Mazda obviously doesn't have the same type of awd heritage Subaru had when they released the WRX, with the parts bin Ford Motor Company provides them, coming out with something "new" isn't quite as daunting a task as you make it seem. Ever hear of the S40? Now I know what you're gonna say... the drivetrain couldn't handle "alot of power" (as you said above). Not quite sure what you mean by "a lot" but let's assume it's more than the 230 or so hp most of us think this car's gonna have. So, in this hypothetical, mazda's got an awd turbo car that's not capable of reliably handling more power than what it comes with in stock form. Hmm... where have I heard this before? granted, that's sort've a worst case scenario.... but even if that were the case, since I'm not the type that's into going crazy with the mods, I for one wouldn't care. 230hp awd is more than enough for me. (see perf specs on the WRX) I'd rather have a well-balanced awd car with around 230hp than a torque steer fwd monster, that can't handle as well in the snow (or at the limit) with 270hp.... but that's just me.
But getting back to the whole "if we haven't mastered it yet, let's not even bother to try" thing.... what kind of attitude is that? Essentially, that's what you're saying! Whatever happenend to having some balls and trying something new? Sure, there may be a risk... but suck it up and figure out a way to minimize it as much as possible. We're talking about AWD here...not landing a man on mars. if a car company ONLY made RWD cars... would they be scared to bring a fWD car out to market just because they haven't had success with it in the past? Obviously that's a ridiculous example... FWD is clearly an easier science to master than AWD.... but still! There comes a point when you have be willing to take a risk. Being as big of a fan of mazda as I am, (they seem to take more risks than most) I figured the new ms3 would be awd. If it were, I'd be shocked if it weren't a huge hit. This would in turn be a huge lift for Mazda and provide a greater sense of pride to its loyal fans (us.) This new car will still be kick ass... and do all of the things I mentioned above. just not the same degree, imo.
anarchistchiken said:
Now we're just getting ridiculous....
So, because the MS6 is a longer car, you're telling me that the talented engineers at mazda couldn't figure out a way to make it work? Come on! Give them some credit! That's their job! I never said it would be easy but... definitely doable. Legal s***? LOL So I guess the countless mfrs who share parts have some pretty good lawyers!
anarchistchiken said:
This is my favorite part.... Where's this 500lbs come from exactly? Did you take the AWD system out of your friends WRX and step on the scale? Cuz the last time I checked... none of these cars have a FWD version to accurately make this assessment. (accept for (maybe) the lancer es) Am I saying awd cars dont' weigh more? of course not.... I might be dumb but I'm not stupid. But 500lbs MAY be a stretch... Based on your point of view, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Let's take that Lancer...The ES weighs in at 2767 while the EVO weighs in at 3086... a difference of about 300lbs. I guess that's the closest we can get to knowing how much extra he awd setup weighs.... so let's take this a step further shall we? Clearly weight is our enemy.... but with the proper power, a litle extra weight isn't necessarily the end of the world. Especially when you're gaining the types of advantages awd offers.
You say you have no problem driving in the snow with fwd. Well congratulations... neither do I! It's generally a perfectly safe means of traveling through wintry weather. But no one can argue that AWD is EVEN safer. There is a sizeable difference in the level of confidence you have in driving an AWD vehicle through less than ideal conditions vs a fwd vehicle. you can't argue.. it's a fact. AWD is the safer option. But since we're obviously into a bit more than safety here, awd also offers better traction, less understeer and... alas, no torque steer! (something nobody seems to be concerned about) Do yourself a favor and go drive a 270hp Acura TL. Slam the gas and feel what happens to the wheel. Since most of the people who buy that car will rarely do that sort've thing, it's not that big of a deal. Sure, the LSD will help (hopefully a lot!) but to what degree is the question. If this car's TS is half as bad as the aforementioned TL, that may be reason enough to go with an AWD variant. Especially if the car's going to sell for $25k Ask most WRX owners what they paid for their cars... most will say that price (or less... far less). You say FWD is cheaper.... unless that translates into a sizeable difference in price (at least 2k) for many consumers, that's a not a sizeable enough difference. [/QUOTE]
anarchistchiken said:
Just because you say an argument needs to end doesn't mean it will (or should). While you may think a "very small percentage" of people care about AWD, you clearly couldn't be any more wrong. Seriously folks... be honest with yourself on this one. Would the WRX be as popular as it is if it was FWD? Let's not kid ourselves here. How about a 300hp FWD Sti? Anyone? LOL small percentage.... Or how about this... Put everything else aside, just consider driving dynamics and performance. Would you rather have a WRX or an SRT-4? Both have similar specs and perf figures. (desite the subie's extra weight). Everything else being equal, do you want the awd or fwd car?
In conclusion, while I don't agree with Mazda's strategy, this car should be a major hit for them. Afterall, as I've said ad naseum already, there aren't too many mfrs tapping into the increasingly popular awd segement. As long as most of mazda's main competitors only come in fwd, they'll most likely crush them in every important category. After driving the WRX and Evo, I knew my next car had to be awd. (there's just no comparrison imo) Being the fan of Mazda that I am, I really wanted my next ride to be a Mazda... So I guess part (most) of this is just my personal frustration/dissapointment.
I guess I'll just have to move somewhere warm and buy an RX-8.
- :
- 10 MS3
Im going to b**** and complain some more 
, IMO it should at least be offered as an option, like in the CX7. If it is offered at around 25K, it will not be FTW. I am not bashing the car, but I would've of thought that Mazda would have wanted to set itself apart from the others. Either way it is going to be a good vehice, pending price.
, IMO it should at least be offered as an option, like in the CX7. If it is offered at around 25K, it will not be FTW. I am not bashing the car, but I would've of thought that Mazda would have wanted to set itself apart from the others. Either way it is going to be a good vehice, pending price.CHICO2003 said:
I think that Mazda will keep the price about $23 thousand, but let me tell you why. I think that Mazda is gonna market this car more against a GTI and the new Civic Si, which both start around the 20-22k range. Those prices are for the base model. While there is no doubt in anyones mind that Mazda will offer some options on the car to jack up the price, and their profits. Mazda would not need to alter the sticker of the regular 3 if they did this. Someone could get a fully loaded 3s for about 22 or 23, or get a base Mazdaspeed 3. They don't need to have a few thousand dollar gap between a fully loaded 3s and the base Mazdaspeed 3. Take your WRX example. While you can buy a WRX TR for about $24k, if you take the WRX and load it up on options it will hit close to $32, which is where the STI starts. This might entice the consumer to move up to the high performance model of any car. They could have the slower one with a bunch of options, or for the same price, they could have the high performance model for the same amount of money
Mr. 4500 RPM
Member
- :
- Black P5
we are forgetting that the mazda3 5 door starts at 17k and some change so 23k seems reasonable. remember that when i got my p5 it was 17k and a msp was like 20-21k so yeah it shouldnt be too much of a price increase.
i was just teasing you about the speeling. 
but like it or not, spelling and grammar can and do impact an argument's credibility.
what do you hope i'm kidding about? the spelling joke or the fact that FWD/AWD ultimately makes no real difference to almost anyone on here besides for bench racing?
i think the point of bringing up ferraris wan't that ferraris have AWD, but that this is a frickin' economy car, not something absolutely dedicated to the highest performance possible.
a little extra weight (and 2-300lbs is not "little") certainly can be offset by extra power...as long as all you care about is accelerating in straight line. EVERYTHING else besides that suffers...weight is bad, period.
AWD doesn't make the car corner or stop better. some of us care about those last 2 things a lot more than the first.
as far as safety in the snow, i don't see how AWD is safer. all cars have "4 wheel stop" and "2 wheel turn"...in other words, AWD helps you get going, but doesn't help any other place.
another way of looking at it is: "it gets you to your accident faster."
that said, i have nothing against AWD, but: A) it's not a magic performance cure-all...AWD isn't necessarily better; and B) there are valid reasons that mazda has (maybe) decided to stick w/ FWD for this car.
i don't think they have to do with "fear of trying something new" or "happy with mediocrity." if those were the case, the miata would be non-existent, and we'd still have the 626 and 929.
it just so happens that the decisions that were made were not the ones you'd make. fair enough, but that doesn't lessen their validity. i'd prefer that the 3s came in at about 2300 lbs...but i'm not running mazda, and i can understand why it doesn't.
but like it or not, spelling and grammar can and do impact an argument's credibility.what do you hope i'm kidding about? the spelling joke or the fact that FWD/AWD ultimately makes no real difference to almost anyone on here besides for bench racing?
i think the point of bringing up ferraris wan't that ferraris have AWD, but that this is a frickin' economy car, not something absolutely dedicated to the highest performance possible.
a little extra weight (and 2-300lbs is not "little") certainly can be offset by extra power...as long as all you care about is accelerating in straight line. EVERYTHING else besides that suffers...weight is bad, period.
AWD doesn't make the car corner or stop better. some of us care about those last 2 things a lot more than the first.
as far as safety in the snow, i don't see how AWD is safer. all cars have "4 wheel stop" and "2 wheel turn"...in other words, AWD helps you get going, but doesn't help any other place.
another way of looking at it is: "it gets you to your accident faster."
that said, i have nothing against AWD, but: A) it's not a magic performance cure-all...AWD isn't necessarily better; and B) there are valid reasons that mazda has (maybe) decided to stick w/ FWD for this car.
i don't think they have to do with "fear of trying something new" or "happy with mediocrity." if those were the case, the miata would be non-existent, and we'd still have the 626 and 929.
it just so happens that the decisions that were made were not the ones you'd make. fair enough, but that doesn't lessen their validity. i'd prefer that the 3s came in at about 2300 lbs...but i'm not running mazda, and i can understand why it doesn't.
Last edited:
- :
- 10 MS3
Iggy said:
This makes sense, the only question is, how much will they leave out of a base MS3? But like someone else already said, we just have to sit and wait
.- :
- 10 MS3
More Pics and can you say 6-speed :
:
Last edited:
- :
- 10 MS3
Rogue Pro5 said:
It better, SI has the same style seats, GTI does also.
snowblazin
Member
- :
- 2014 Mazda3 SGT - It's the color of snowflakes!
I need one...now. (sad1)
- Status
