MS3@ Geneva 06.

[CHICO2003]

I say again, AWD adds to the overall weight. So it can be a positive.

oh come on! so does a bigger engine! wtf? how can you say awd isn't a "positive" thing? yeah, it'll add weight but it'll also add traction, handling and most of all, the ability to drift!

Seriously... if it's the difference between RWD and AWD... RWD hands down (in the warmer climates) but FWD vs AWD everywhere else? come on!! no contest!!


Something no one seems to have mentioned yet... torque steer.

the critics killed the msp (even with it's LSD) for this. 170hp!! this car's going to have a shitload more... isn't anyone worried about this? yet another reason for AWD.

Sorry guys but... as much as I dig mazdas, they dropped the ball.

 

[Iggy]

I'll drink to that... man for it being my birthday, I really needed a nap earlier. At any rate, what hiboost has done with our cars has got me thinking to ditch my MSP for a grand touring 3... At any rate, save for the FWD, it a bargain compared to any other car. Selling cars all day, the GT M3 is the only car that I've given people the sticker price on, and they were surprised how cheap it was.

(cheers)(cheers)(cheers) DRINKS ALL AROUND! Happy Birthday!

 

[Newf]

oh come on! so does a bigger engine! wtf? how can you say awd isn't a "positive" thing? yeah, it'll add weight but it'll also add traction, handling and most of all, the ability to drift!

Seriously... if it's the difference between RWD and AWD... RWD hands down (in the warmer climates) but FWD vs AWD everywhere else? come on!! no contest!!


Something no one seems to have mentioned yet... torque steer.

the critics killed the msp (even with it's LSD) for this. 170hp!! this car's going to have a shitload more... isn't anyone worried about this? yet another reason for AWD.

Sorry guys but... as much as I dig mazdas, they dropped the ball.

agreed. They have all of the sources at their disposal to acheive this and create something special. But they didn't. end of story

 

[Antoine]

I don't agree...I think the MS3 will be a natural progression of the MS program and a positive evolution of the current Mazda3. I also think it will be the most well rounded sport compact in it's class and be very competitive as a track car.

At least wait until the car is OUT before you downgrade it...

 

[Captain KRM P5]

At least wait until the car is OUT before you downgrade it...

as i recall, thats what people on this forum did with the msp, the msm and the ms6 before they all came out. plenty of armchair engineers who think they know the cars better than the manufacturer who criticize it sight unseen before release.

 

[dmitrik4]

and most of all, the ability to drift!

that says it all right there...

the MSP's main problem was too much weight, not enough power, not enough camber. another 200 lbs wouldn't have helped at all.

the bottom line is that less weight is only ever good for handling...i'd rather save the 200+ pounds versus having something i'll rarely, if ever, have a need for.

i think the MS3 might be a great D-Stock car.

 

[Antoine]

as i recall, thats what people on this forum did with the msp, the msm and the ms6 before they all came out. plenty of armchair engineers who think they know the cars better than the manufacturer who criticize it sight unseen before release.

Exactly.

 

[Newf]

as i recall, that's what people on this forum did with the msp, the msm and the ms6 before they all came out. plenty of armchair engineers who think they know the cars better than the manufacturer who criticize it sight unseen before release.

ok, to a degree you are right.

but there is a few things you can not ignore

1. it's using the same engine as the MS6. Same top mount pos intercooler by the looks of it. The MS6 has hesitation and power loss issues already. not all of them, but the numbers are indeed increasing and I'd imagine once summer temps get here it'll be worse. What's actually wrong is totally speculation by all parties right now. Hopefully they'll fix it without blowing something up. Now,what are the chances that the Ms3 will also have the same problems.....pretty friggin good I'd say. and to anyone thinking that Mazda won't release the MS3 unless the problem is fixed, I got one word for ya

"CLUNK"

two years after knowing the Mp3 had a serious suspension flaw, they still released the MSP knowing it had the same problem.

2. There is NO good enough reason why they can't release both sedan and Hatch. They have everything there at their disposal to do it.

3. well there isn't really any #3. But AWD would have made it special but this is really a preference thing



I love Mazda for the most part, and I really really want to see this car be as good as it could be. But Mazda has ****** up every mazdaspeed to date somehow. well, I'm not aware of any Miata issues but i never read up on it, then again it's HP rating was a friggin joke.

Perhaps Reality is just sinking in to me after 5 years of fighting with them on just about everything and it's making me bitter.

I really really hope I'm wrong. Because this car could kick some major friggin ass if done right ( for a change ) and could easily be a class leader. No way in hell is the dodge going to look as good like it inside/out, and the Civic Si could chase behind it all damn day and never catch it.

 

[CHICO2003]

I don't agree...I think the MS3 will be a natural progression of the MS program and a positive evolution of the current Mazda3. I also think it will be the most well rounded sport compact in it's class and be very competitive as a track car.

At least wait until the car is OUT before you downgrade it...

I guess in some respects you're right. It's generally not fair to judge something before it's even out. That said, since it's pretty much a certainty that this car will be FWD, it IS fair to judge it on THAT. Clearly there's a bit of dissension with regard to the value AWD provides. I think a lot of that has to do with where one happens to live. I for one live in an area that gets hit pretty hard during the winter. While FWD isn't bad (certainly a lot better than RWD) AWD is obviously the superior setup. For those who don't have winters like me, I can see how awd wouldn't be quite as valuable. That said, why not just get a RWD car? If I lived somewhere warm, I doubt I'd want an AWD car either. Even with it's handling prowess, to me, the value is diminished greatly. I'm not sure exactly what I'd drive (haven't given it a ton of thought... maybe an RX-8) but it sure as hell wouldn't be a FWD car.

Anyway, i went off on a tangent. (what else is new?) Here's the bottom line. Assuming this car doesn't suffer from a ridiculous amount of tourque steer (something that cannot be judged until it comes out) I too think it will be a formidable car with those in which it competes with.

But here's the deal...

There are those who are satisfied with merely being "competitive" or, at best, marginally better than the competition. These types don't mind simply being "average". Then there are the types who prefer to take chances. Maybe go a bit against the grain in order to possibly gain some type of competitive edge. Is this strategy inherently more risky? Perhaps. But the potential rewad far outweighs the risk.

Earlier, I said Mazda dropped the ball in making this car FWD. That was a bit harsh. This car will compare favorably to the likes of the GLI, Cobalt, Civic, and the rest of the FWD sport compacts. While they may not have dropped the ball... in my oppinion, they missed out on a GOLDEN opportunity. With the resources they have, they could have easily given this car awd. The modest extra cost involved would have been highly ouweighed by the host of intangible benefits a car like this (awd/turbo) would provide. ie. a "flagship-esque" type car to provide the mfr with more of an identity. This would in turn create more of a buzz for the mfr and naturally stimulate interest in the rest of their line. Look no further than the effect the WRX had on Subaru as a whole. While the company wasn't exactly in shambles, there's no doubt that the car helped springboard them to a level nobody but nobody would have foresaw 6 years ago.

In short, in choosing FWD, Mazda in some ways took the easy way out. They elected to "play it safe" and compete with the masses Nobody ever said getting ahead was easy. Sometimes you gotta suck it up and take on the king of the jungle. It's been 4 years since the WRX came out. Subaru's sold a billion of these things since. Dodge and Chevy recently introduced their respective versions of the pony car in hopes of taking away some marketshare from the ultra popular new mustang. Why various mfrs haven't taken the same approach with the WRX's popularity is beyond me.

 

[jflo]

as i recall, thats what people on this forum did with the msp, the msm and the ms6 before they all came out. plenty of armchair engineers who think they know the cars better than the manufacturer who criticize it sight unseen before release.

EXACTLY ! jeeze...so much speculation from what people are just reading. ridiculous people. blah blah blah i know so much about the mazdaspeed3 because i've got 2 eyes that were specially developed to tell you just how bad or good something will be through pictures.

 

[MPSpeedSeraph]

I guess in some respects you're right. It's generally not fair to judge something before it's even out. That said, since it's pretty much a certainty that this car will be FWD, it IS fair to judge it on THAT. Clearly there's a bit of dissension with regard to the value AWD provides. I think a lot of that has to do with where one happens to live. I for one live in an area that gets hit pretty hard during the winter. While FWD isn't bad (certainly a lot better than RWD) AWD is obviously the superior setup. For those who don't have winters like me, I can see how awd wouldn't be quite as valuable. That said, why not just get a RWD car? If I lived somewhere warm, I doubt I'd want an AWD car either. Even with it's handling prowess, to me, the value is diminished greatly. I'm not sure exactly what I'd drive (haven't given it a ton of thought... maybe an RX-8) but it sure as hell wouldn't be a FWD car.

Anyway, i went off on a tangent. (what else is new?) Here's the bottom line. Assuming this car doesn't suffer from a ridiculous amount of tourque steer (something that cannot be judged until it comes out) I too think it will be a formidable car with those in which it competes with.

But here's the deal...

There are those who are satisfied with merely being "competitive" or, at best, marginally better than the competition. These types don't mind simply being "average". Then there are the types who prefer to take chances. Maybe go a bit against the grain in order to possibly gain some type of competitive edge. Is this strategy inherently more risky? Perhaps. But the potential rewad far outweighs the risk.

Earlier, I said Mazda dropped the ball in making this car FWD. That was a bit harsh. This car will compare favorably to the likes of the GLI, Cobalt, Civic, and the rest of the FWD sport compacts. While they may not have dropped the ball... in my oppinion, they missed out on a GOLDEN opportunity. With the resources they have, they could have easily given this car awd. The modest extra cost involved would have been highly ouweighed by the host of intangible benefits a car like this (awd/turbo) would provide. ie. a "flagship-esque" type car to provide the mfr with more of an identity. This would in turn create more of a buzz for the mfr and naturally stimulate interest in the rest of their line. Look no further than the effect the WRX had on Subaru as a whole. While the company wasn't exactly in shambles, there's no doubt that the car helped springboard them to a level nobody but nobody would have foresaw 6 years ago.

In short, in choosing FWD, Mazda in some ways took the easy way out. They elected to "play it safe" and compete with the masses Nobody ever said getting ahead was easy. Sometimes you gotta suck it up and take on the king of the jungle. It's been 4 years since the WRX came out. Subaru's sold a billion of these things since. Dodge and Chevy recently introduced their respective versions of the pony car in hopes of taking away some marketshare from the ultra popular new mustang. Why various mfrs haven't taken the same approach with the WRX's popularity is beyond me.

You make it sound like it would have been CHEAP for Mazda to go back to the drawing board and develop AWD on this car.

Do you realize how much R&D alone costs?

Sometimes although a company wants to release a product that is highly embraced by the masses, they have to do what they can to keep the coin in their pocket...

but I guess if you decided to pay the bill for them then it would be okay and you'd get the AWD you so desperately desire (thumb)

 

[Rogue]

You make it sound like it would have been CHEAP for Mazda to go back to the drawing board and develop AWD on this car.

Do you realize how much R&D alone costs?

Sometimes although a company wants to release a product that is highly embraced by the masses, they have to do what they can to keep the coin in their pocket...

but I guess if you decided to pay the bill for them then it would be okay and you'd get the AWD you so desperately desire (thumb)

All the R&D has been developed and implemented in the MS6. As I mentioned before, I believe there is an AWD version of the Mazda5, which is a modified Mazda3. So, swapping the AWD components wouldn't have have been difficult.

I think it comes down to cost. If Mazda is trying to stay in a certain price bracket, AWD drive may not have been a feasable option.


To those that are in love with the car: How many will buy it as soon as it comes out? How many will wait to see what problems (heat soak, clunk, etc.) occur before buying?

 

[anarchistchiken]

There are those who are satisfied with merely being "competitive" or, at best, marginally better than the competition. These types don't mind simply being "average". Then there are the types who prefer to take chances. Maybe go a bit against the grain in order to possibly gain some type of competitive edge. Is this strategy inherently more risky? Perhaps. But the potential rewad far outweighs the risk.

Dude, it's a $23,000 economy car, not a ******* ferrari. Mazda has never been a large producer of AWD systems. The 323 GTX was a good system, but that was one of the very few cars Mazda ever made AWD, and it was a long time ago. We have yet to see how reliable the MS6 system is with a lot of power, and as far as the 5 awd, it will be FWD w/ rear assist, which is far from ideal for a performance car not to mention that it is not currently being produced and there's no way of telling when it will enter production (and if/when it is, I will give you my car if they release it in a manual setup).

And to whoever said just throw in the MS6 AWD, think about that. The 6 is longer, wider, and laid out differently from the 3. Even if the tranny and transfer case sropped right into the 3, they would need to design a new driveshaft and new axles, not to mention any legal s*** they would have to go through to get permission to use it from Ford and Volvo.

Even if they went through all that s*** and added the 500 lb's of extra crap needed to make it work, it still would not compete directly with the WRX, and wouldn't even be close to the STI/Evo. It would be rated right about the same hp as the WRX, it would have a much less advanced AWD system, etc. However, as a FWD car, it's in the same bracket as the Cobalt SS, SRT-4 (current) Ion Redline, GTI, and it will still be very competitive with the WRX, it'll just have a slightly high 60' time.

This argument needs to end now. There is absoultely no reason to make the car AWD except for the very very small percentage of people who would even consider AWD neccesary in a car over fwd. With FWD, it will still be very capable in the snow, it will be lighter, it will be cheaper, it will put more power to the ground, and there's less stuff to break in a new model in a series that is plagued with problems.

 

[Iggy]

Dude, it's a $23,000 economy car, not a ******* ferrari. Mazda has never been a large producer of AWD systems. The 323 GTX was a good system, but that was one of the very few cars Mazda ever made AWD, and it was a long time ago. We have yet to see how reliable the MS6 system is with a lot of power, and as far as the 5 awd, it will be FWD w/ rear assist, which is far from ideal for a performance car not to mention that it is not currently being produced and there's no way of telling when it will enter production (and if/when it is, I will give you my car if they release it in a manual setup).

And to whoever said just throw in the MS6 AWD, think about that. The 6 is longer, wider, and laid out differently from the 3. Even if the tranny and transfer case sropped right into the 3, they would need to design a new driveshaft and new axles, not to mention any legal s*** they would have to go through to get permission to use it from Ford and Volvo.

Even if they went through all that s*** and added the 500 lb's of extra crap needed to make it work, it still would not compete directly with the WRX, and wouldn't even be close to the STI/Evo. It would be rated right about the same hp as the WRX, it would have a much less advanced AWD system, etc. However, as a FWD car, it's in the same bracket as the Cobalt SS, SRT-4 (current) Ion Redline, GTI, and it will still be very competitive with the WRX, it'll just have a slightly high 60' time.

This argument needs to end now. There is absoultely no reason to make the car AWD except for the very very small percentage of people who would even consider AWD neccesary in a car over fwd. With FWD, it will still be very capable in the snow, it will be lighter, it will be cheaper, it will put more power to the ground, and there's less stuff to break in a new model in a series that is plagued with problems.

(mswerd)

 

[jflo]

Dude, it's a $23,000 economy car, not a ******* ferrari. Mazda has never been a large producer of AWD systems. The 323 GTX was a good system, but that was one of the very few cars Mazda ever made AWD, and it was a long time ago. We have yet to see how reliable the MS6 system is with a lot of power, and as far as the 5 awd, it will be FWD w/ rear assist, which is far from ideal for a performance car not to mention that it is not currently being produced and there's no way of telling when it will enter production (and if/when it is, I will give you my car if they release it in a manual setup).

And to whoever said just throw in the MS6 AWD, think about that. The 6 is longer, wider, and laid out differently from the 3. Even if the tranny and transfer case sropped right into the 3, they would need to design a new driveshaft and new axles, not to mention any legal s*** they would have to go through to get permission to use it from Ford and Volvo.

Even if they went through all that s*** and added the 500 lb's of extra crap needed to make it work, it still would not compete directly with the WRX, and wouldn't even be close to the STI/Evo. It would be rated right about the same hp as the WRX, it would have a much less advanced AWD system, etc. However, as a FWD car, it's in the same bracket as the Cobalt SS, SRT-4 (current) Ion Redline, GTI, and it will still be very competitive with the WRX, it'll just have a slightly high 60' time.

This argument needs to end now. There is absoultely no reason to make the car AWD except for the very very small percentage of people who would even consider AWD neccesary in a car over fwd. With FWD, it will still be very capable in the snow, it will be lighter, it will be cheaper, it will put more power to the ground, and there's less stuff to break in a new model in a series that is plagued with problems.

thank you. my sentiments exactly.

 

[altspace]

Excellent! Said yet again what I have over and over here. No AWD = Less Weight! I live in snow country and guess what..I know how to drive a FWD vehicle in it.

 

[Rogue]

anarchistchicken for the win

 

[4001]

Im not saying this is going to be a bad car but with Mazdas track record of MazdaSpeed Vechicles, I would be really cautious with the MS3, I wouldnt jump on it as soon as it came out. The MSP speaks for itself (I still enjoy the car though) and the MS6 doesnt seem to be all that great thus far either. After reading the posts in the link it doesnt seem like the MS6 has a intercooler problem but something else, becasue people are experiencing powerloss in cold temps.

http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=46807&st=0

 

[CHICO2003]

You guys crack me up... Anarchistchiken for the win??? wtf is that? lol When I get home from work I'll shoot his argument full of so many holes you'll think it's swiss cheese after I'm done with it.

Till then... all you FWD lovin fools, enjoy the tourque steer!!

 

[Aricjm15]

You guys crack me up... Anarchistchiken for the win??? wtf is that? lol When I get home from work I'll shoot his argument full of so many holes you'll think it's swiss cheese after I'm done with it.

Till then... all you FWD lovin fools, enjoy the tourque steer!!