Larger Injectors For Forced Induction

[Captain KRM P5]

Only crap is what you post. (blah)
Get your facts straight and I don't have to call you out.
Have fun blowing people's motors up.

By the way, if you did this full time instead of a side job, you would know Unichip still makes the system, just the # of dealers that sell it are now limited.

i was told by more a few places that unichip had or was going to discontinue the system for the msp and i said that to steve some time back, so feel free to lay that on me. and i do this full time no less.

i'll vouch for steve when it comes to not blowing motors. if anyone's advice on this forum leads to a blown motor it won't be coming from him. if anyone has had a motor blown from advice from NSN in the last several years they have done business, feel free to point them out to me. i can name more than a few people, right or wrong, who had thier engines pop thanks to unichip.

you can disagree with him all you want but you don't need to do it like this. i enjoy working with you on stuff sam, but your approach here was unprofessional. my 2 cents regardless of what that may mean to you.

 

[JDM Sam]

 

[djarkitek]

i was told by more a few places that unichip had or was going to discontinue the system for the msp and i said that to steve some time back, so feel free to lay that on me. and i do this full time no less.

i'll vouch for steve when it comes to not blowing motors. if anyone's advice on this forum leads to a blown motor it won't be coming from him. if anyone has had a motor blown from advice from NSN in the last several years they have done business, feel free to point them out to me. i can name more than a few people, right or wrong, who had thier engines pop thanks to unichip.

you can disagree with him all you want but you don't need to do it like this. i enjoy working with you on stuff sam, but your approach here was unprofessional. my 2 cents regardless of what that may mean to you.

(inout)

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Max mazda blew his motor that he got from kooldino...which is the guy that builds the built motors you sell...given i'm sure you'll say it was max's fault..but i have yet to see any of sam's builds result in a blown motor yet..

uh, what?

kooldino and nsn are not related in any way, and why would you think that i would say that? i have no idea why maxx mazda's motor blew and know nothing of his particular situation, i haven't even read up on the details. if dana did something wrong and the engine blew then thats what it is and i would not try to say anything otherwise. i never said that sam's builds would blow an engine, i just said i have enough confidence having worked with steve to know that he doesn't pass out dime store advice that would do it either and has yet to do so.

btw - in before the edit

 

[djarkitek]

uh, what?


btw - in before the edit

there is a reason why i edited my comments....duhhhhh

 

[Captain KRM P5]

there is a reason why i edited my comments....duhhhhh

(drinks)

 

[JDM Sam]

I'll start hoarding blocks if you agree with telling people stock injectors can be run to 15 psi and 260 hp.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

what the hell does that even mean? i never said i thought you wrong or that you were full of s*** sam, i said the way you conveyed yourself and approached the argument was unprofessional - thats it and nothing more. like it, dislike it, agree with that or disagree with that, it doesn't matter to me either way.

i'm entitled to having the opinion that you acted like a dick regardless of how right or wrong something was and i have no problem saying so. if you have a problem with that you know how to reach me.

 

[TurfBurn]

Let's clear something up here... what i was saying/implying was we safely ran to 260 whp and 15 psi on stock injectors (various system efficiencies, tuning, and output levels come into play to achieve it.. .not every car can do it plain and simple) my wording was not conservative enough though apparently. Meaning we checked and verified duty cycles and AFR's and ensured the system was safe while doing it. Meaning it CAN be done... not that it should be done or that every system or car is the same. That's a completely novice thought to believe that because one car did it that every car can do it. I know for a fact that I've regularily tuned and seen cars and there are probably a half dozen plus people pushing over 210 whp on stock injectors (and some over 220) in the 10-12 psi range without any issue and with safe duty cycles. I never advocated pushing past the capabilities of the injectors themselves. What I did say is that 80% is not a true value, that the calculators are wrong/overly conservative, and that you can achieve greater power on the injectors than indicated by those crap calculators. I also think the right car and the right setup and someone could squeeze more hp than we did as well.

When I get into the detail and the reasoning behind everything it gets pissed off... it's like arguing with a 3 year old... anything you say is over their head so they piss and moan and try to pull you down to their level instead of listening to what you are saying.

You ran a rising rate fuel pump, it bumps fuel pressure as MAP increases. Bumping up fuel pressure changes the equation.

And for the record I'd like to know what the hell a rising rate fuel pump is since no such thing exists and the FPR at the fuel rail AFTER the overrides and controls the pressure in the line, and we used a stock FPR. But yes, changing fuel pressure over nominal does change the equation and lo and behold the calculator doesn't specify anything about it either.

 

[kyle's protege5]

Ok, i'm actually keeping up with what everybody is saying, one question though.

What the hell is a "pierberg inline"

 

[TurfBurn]

a pierberg inline is a particular brand (pierberg) of fuel pump that you place inline on your fuel line from the tank to the fuel rail. It's an additional pump over the one in the tank... so you'd leave a stock pump in place, and add this one... this was done before people knew which Walbro pumps dropped in.

 

[JDM Sam]

My mistake I meant FPR, but it still conveyed the message of rising fuel pressure. Nevertheless, your pierburg raised the pressure increasing what the injectors can support.

Point is what can be done and what should be done are 2 different things.

I would love to see you run 15 psi on a completely stock fuel system.

 

[Blake]

zWHY IS EVERYONE YELLLLLLLLLLLLING

 

[Focus]

Rising rate FPR. There are two that are the most common.

1. The Vortech FMU ( http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=31&cat_key=5 )

2. The BEGI ( http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html )

As boost pressure goes up the fuel pressure follows. Simple Concept, but it works !!

 

[LordWorm]

Rising rate FPR. There are two that are the most common.

1. The Vortech FMU ( http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=31&cat_key=5 )

2. The BEGI ( http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html )

As boost pressure goes up the fuel pressure follows. Simple Concept, but it works !!

not meaning to weigh in and be a smartass - but doesn't every fuel reg do this? i mean they all have a vac line, the pressures go up in line with an increase in pressure/decrease in vac..

I was under the impression that the only difference was an RRFPR behaved in a non-linear fashion...where a normal adjustable FPR increased pressure in a linear fashion... i'm happy to be corrected - i was just under the impression that this is what the go was.

 

[TurfBurn]

Yeah... I know full well what a rising rate fuel pressure regulator is... and we didn't have one on there... just using the stock FPR. A fuel pump in and of itself can not and will not raise the pressure (unless the FPR is inadequate for the flow... in some rare cases a pump can way overdrive a regulator and you get unstable runaway pressures... never seen that on the Protege's yet). The FPR diaphragm controls it. The pump just allows the flow to be achieved at those same pressures.

The stock FPR has a diaphragm and spring that keeps fuel at roughly 50 psi I believe is stock nominal (measured at idle I belive). Basically anytime the fuel pressure starts to exceed it allows fuel past to lower the pressure... if the pressure starts to drop it lets less flow past.... if pressure and flow both go down to the point the fpr closes then you start losing pressure and there isn't anything it can do about it basically. Our fuel system is a recirculating/bypassing system... some other systems have a head based system where the fuel doesn't bypass just is pumped into a dead end and you have system head pressure that is attempted to maintain and the pressure is controlled a bit different.

 

[TurfBurn]

Rising rate FPR. There are two that are the most common.

1. The Vortech FMU ( http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=31&cat_key=5 )

2. The BEGI ( http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html )

As boost pressure goes up the fuel pressure follows. Simple Concept, but it works !!

Yep, very familiar with those... but nothing like that in the system when we did our stuff...

I personally use a boost referenced AEM FPR linear referenced off my boost line for my vehicle. But the vehicle in quesiton had a stock FPR only and a stock fuel rail and stock injectors... only fuel system item in place was the inline fuel pump to help with flow as needed... it was a holdover from when that car was not fitted with an EMS and was using an FMU.

 

[TurfBurn]

Also, for clarity since I know this whole 15 psi 260 horse etc is causing a lot of problems here is what was and wasn't going on... first I missed on psi... horsepower was right... but psi was 12 psi.

AFR's: pushed to about 12.6
Duty cycles: over 80% in some places but nominal for injector responses. We tried to go into 14-15 psi range and the injectors couldn't keep up and we started to lean out and have other issues. Peak horsepower though was made around 5400 and were able to get the injectors to be okay there... but it got more dicey toward redline, so we had to back fof a few things to make it more or less okay up there and keep things stable.
Gas: 93 octane pump gas
Systems: J&S safeguard, Microtech EMS, Pierberg inline, stock in-tank pump, stock plumbing, stock fuel rail, stock injectors.

 

[TurfBurn]

not meaning to weigh in and be a smartass - but doesn't every fuel reg do this? i mean they all have a vac line, the pressures go up in line with an increase in pressure/decrease in vac..

I was under the impression that the only difference was an RRFPR behaved in a non-linear fashion...where a normal adjustable FPR increased pressure in a linear fashion... i'm happy to be corrected - i was just under the impression that this is what the go was.

You are correct in your understanding... however not every FPR has a boost/vac reference line. some are static. Also, the RRFPR's are still technically "linear" in most cases... just not 1:1.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

Remove the stock FPR solenoid and run a vac line direct to the regulator on the rail. My fuel pressure is around 40psi at idle, going up to 80-90 under boost. (Yes, I have 2 fuel pressure gauges so I know it's accurate) so in theory, you can tune the stock injectors up a bit higher, but why? Injectors are so cheap these days. I got a brand new set of STi 575's for $300 off ebay. That's a drop in the ocean of mods.

And for the record, my engine blew because of incorrectly set valve lash.