Best Transmission Fluid Used...

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MazdaSpeed III
OK guys lets start this thread about types of transmission fluid people are using out there in the forum.(drive2)

Transmission Fluid Brand
Type
Brief info about it & experience with it.
 
This has been done so many times. Here, let me answer for the majority of the entire internet with a Mazdaspeed...

Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS also known as the "Honey" for its looks. The best all-around fluid for our car out there imo. Partly b/c it has one of the lowest viscosities for a 75w90 GL-4 fluid. Unlike Amsoil or Redline's which are quite a bit thicker kv@40c, which are both in the more normal range, but not so low as the Synchromesh/Synchromax fluids, which are very low viscosity at kv40, but themselves being higher than an ATF. So in this regard it goes...

ATF
Synchromesh/Synchromax
FM Honey
Normal GL-4 75w90's

The thing is, the viscosity at kv40 and 100 are what are most likely to effect shift feel. The lower usually the better. However, there is a tradeoff, and that is protection. The higher kv100 is usually better. This is where the XT-M5-QS steps in as an in-between'er of all the Synchromesh/max fluids and GL-4 75w90's. Some people have realized that the Synchromesh/max fluids shift even better, especially in the cold. So they are using the GM or Pennzoil or Royal Purple's Synchromesh/max's or the Redline MTL (kv40 and 100 are in the same range as SM's). What they don't realize is they are using a fluid that is completely out of spec for this tranny. If warranty comes to issue this could be a problem. They are also taking a big chance on wear protection. This is what Synchromesh/max fluids are made for... better protection than an ATF for manual trannies that call for an ATF, as the Sychromesh/max has a higher viscosity than ATF.

The thing is, regular GL-4 75w90 fluids MAY have better protection than the Honey since they are more viscous at all temperatures... but the tradeoff for shift quality of the Honey makes it worth the small gamble imo. Technically it is still a 75w90 GL-4 rated fluid. But JUST BARELY! So it's as far as I would go down as it's still a warranty-able fluid and having receipts for this fluid will keep you in spec and under warranty. If your tranny ever failed with a Synchromax fluid, just know they could do a Used Oil Analysis and prove that fluid is out of spec and deny a warranty claim. Regular observation of the fluid upon visual inspection would likely tip them off you are using way too thin of an oil where they might call it into question and do such a test.

If protection is your only concern and shift quality doesn't matter to you at all, then chose a good synthetic GL-4 75w90 fluid in the more normal, higher, viscosity like AMSOIL's or Redline's.

If easy of shifting, especially in the cold, is your only concern then try a good synthetic Synchromax like Royal Purple's or AMSOIL or Redline MTL or the newer GM full synthetic (they have a conventional one too).

And as I said, the best all around'er is Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS fluid. It's in spec but just so. So it has great shifting properties while retaining very good protection qualities since it's still technically in spec and it's also a true fully synthetic basestock majority.
 
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So to clarify, Redline MT90 is the GL-4 offering, being Redline 75-90 is GL-5 and MTF is... ??? I've heard good things about Royal Purple. Good friend uses it in his RX-7 that makes 500whp.
 
Well, Red Line has 3 GL-4 fluids. Their MT-90 which is a 75w90 and the MTL (basically a Synchromesh/max replacement in terms of kinematic viscosity at 40 & 100C cSt ie: 70w80) and also they now have an interesting fluid called MT-85 which is a GL-4 75w85. Technically this would be out of spec too, but to me it's the most interesting as it's an in-between Synchromesh/max and 75w90. This is the fluid, if warranty was no concern, that I would use from them as it likely has even better shift feel than the Ford Honey but also better protection than the Synchromesh/max's. Including their own. I may even give it a go anyhow as I doubt any issues would arise using it (imo).

They also offer a GL-5 75w90 for transmissions they call 75w90 NS which carries the newer GL-5 spec for trannies in the right kv. This is a tad bit thicker at kv40C cSt than their GL-4 75w90. This is not to be confused with their GL-5 75w90 gear oil (for differentials) which doesn't carry the "NS" nomenclature. However, GL-5 tranny oil's are a concern for the "yellow metals" having an issue with corrosion from the extreme pressure additives. Though there is some debate now, from some very smart people (see bitog) btw, where they believe this is no longer an issue with the modern GL-5 rated oil's for transmissions. I could link you to a few threads where this discussion is played out, but if a warranty is a concern, then don't even consider it. Really there's not a huge issue to move to GL-5 from GL-4 imo anyways so it's probably not worth worrying about. Though I do agree they need to get off their collective butt's and re-address this issue so newer fluids can finally move forward. I wouldn't myself want to try the GL-5 75w90 NS anyhow as it's a tad thicker at kv40 C cSt, which would make it shift worse in the cold than even their GL-4 75w90.

So the safe bet still ends up back as the Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS as it's still a GL-4 75w90 required for warranty but as thin as possible at kv40 and 100 while still retaining this specification. Though as I said earlier, for me, I'm going to try the new Red Line GL-4 75w85 fluid as I'm willing to take that chance. I know it's going to be fantastic shift quality.

For reference so you can see this all side by side...

For transmissions:
D4 ATF ======== kv40 @ 34.0, kv100 @ 7.5 (<--- Automatic Transmission Fluid, you can see how thin it is)
GL-4 MTL 70w80 == kv40 @ 56.2, kv100 @ 10.6 (<--- Basically a Synchromesh/max range of fluid)
GL-4 MT-85 75w85 = kv40 @ 64.3, kv100 @ 12.0 (<--- A new "tweener" fluid, but even lighter than the Honey! not in spec tho)
GL-4 MT-90 75w90 = kv40 @ 90.0, kv100 @ 15.6 (<--- A "normal" ranged GL-4 75w90)

For differentials:
GL-5 75w90 ===== kv40 @ 115, kv100 @ 16.4 (<--- You can see how much thicker it is)

And for more reference, Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS = kv40 @ 76.0, kv100 @ 15.4 (as you can see, this lies right between the Synchromesh and 75w90 GL-4 at kv40 C cSt, but actually is still within the proper range of a 75w90 GL-4 at kv100 C cSt, this is why we all love this fluid! The greatness of shifting in a lighter viscosity fluid at all temps but still technically in the proper spec to maintain warranty claims. I'm curious myself as to what the majority of their basestocks are, as the must be of extremely high quality or a lot of viscosity index improver's.

This is why people who end up trying a Synchromesh level of viscosity fluid rave about how great it shifts. But they're not realizing the problem with this. Protection. For this matter, one could just go ahead and use an ATF fluids for even better shifting properties, but they don't obviously because they realize they would be out of spec and would like cause wear issues eventually. Especially in the heat! For these people doing this, I would recommend they move to something like the MT-85 or AMSOIL's new equivalent offering in the same range instead of staying with a Synchromesh/Synchromax. At the very least, in the heat of summer most especially if racing it in the summer!

So if you are tracking your car a lot, you may want a more conventional GL-4 75w90 for the protection of the thicker viscosity would probably handle the high temps a lot better. But if you just daily drive and it's in the cold you may want something thinner. This is why I was thinking of trying the Red Line MT-85 or the new AMSOIL equivalent (they have one too in this range) for a winter run and then going to their MT-90 for a hot summer run when tracking/racing. Or else if I want an all around fluid for a year round solution in a climate that gets really hot and really cold like the Midwest, the Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS "Honey" would be the pick. Which is why I say it's the best all around choice for us. A set it and forget it fluid. ;)
 
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There was some debate on whether or not GL-5 would hurt my trans in my PGT. I used the GL-5 Redline for a few years, the only thing I ever noticed was when the trans got too hot from making repeated passes down the track. At 214k, I don't really know that it ever had to do with the gear oil, though.
 
Ya, I kind of come down on the side that the newer GL-5 rated transmission gear oil's are no longer corrosive to the yellow metals too. I've seen enough convincing arguments to be pretty sure of it for myself, though I wouldn't personally make a recommendation to another person to do so. I really think they do need to finally move on this though and update their ratings and findings to reflect this now, because as long as they don't, we will be stuck with GL-4 mainly because of warranties and old hand-me-down information spread by word of mouth that takes forever to die out. Hell, I still get people saying Pennzoil is made of wax and will sludge up a car almost instantly! Hahahaha I had one guy tell me with a straight face if I brought in a receipt of Pennzoil to any dealership in the world they instantly void your entire warranty. I almost fell over and died on the spot. lol

Sounds like a good case for a transmission cooler (or bigger one) if you didn't have one already.
 
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I'm learning a lot today...didn't know there were manual transmission coolers. Don't you have to install an external pump to make that work?
 
Well, there are a few ways to do it, but yes you can go the homemade route with an electric pump too. There are also some kits out there using heat transfer to cycle it. Nascar also uses coolers for their transmission and differentials but of course that's their own stuff. I know of a couple guys that made their own coolers using electric pumps though that worked pretty good. My only worry would be that he was using a really high quality synthetic oil and it just makes me wonder what the route of the problem was. The 75w90 NS is thicker at kv100c cSt and I'm wondering if something like the Ford Honey might have faired better. Of course you always worry about going too thin doing heavy duty racing like he was (I'm guessing?) so it would be interesting to hear if you ever solved it by just changing to a different fluid (?) and if so what kind did the trick?
 
I posted this on another forum, but figured I'd add it to this thread as it's a good thread with a lot of info...

I was a big believer in the Ford XT-M5-QS honey too, but eventually I had the 3rd gear synchros go bad while on it. When they tore it down the Ford fluid was near black and extremely thinned out. I had about the best person out there (Molakule at BitoG) recommend the GM Synthetic 12346190 fluid. His post...

"You might also want to try the GM Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid, # 12346190. And it IS a real synthetic MT fluid with PAO's and esters and none of the pseudo-synthetic GroupIII oils.

It was specially designed for cold weather shifting."

...I asked it's kv 40 and 100 cSt stats...

"75 and 11.5 cSt, respectively."

...this is a GL-4 75w90 fully synthetic fluid btw, so it keeps you in warranty. Alternatively, Red Line has a new product out, MT-85, which lands in-between their MTL and MT-90 fluids... though it's not a 75w90 so it's not technically in warranty.

I have seen 3 of us now have synchros go out on the Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS honey, me being one of them, and after it sheared like that and came out so black I have no plans to put it in my brand new transmission. Sure, it does work miracles for shifting, I'm just not convinced it provides the long term extended protection I'm wanting. Molakule is probably THE most respected person on the internet about transmission and gear oils so when he recommends something, I definitely am listening. Those are some pretty high words from him about the GM Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid, # 12346190 so I'm game. I love that lighter kv 100 cSt spec too (makes for easier shifting) and it's technically a true GL-4 75w90 fluid so that is important for getting the protection you need.

I won't lie, it's EXPENSIVE as heck at $22 a quart but for smooth easy shifting AND longterm quality protection, I'm IN. Being a true group IV and V synthetic is nice to know too. I don't like my gear oils having to use VII's.

Update to my above post, for reference so you can see this all side by side...

GM Synthetic MTF 12346190:
GL-4 75w90 ===== kv 40 cSt: 75, kv 100 cSt: 11.5, VI: , PP (c): , FP (c):

Red Line:
D4 ATF ======== kv 40 cSt: 34.0, kv 100 cSt: 7.5, VI: 198, PP (c): -60, FP (c): 225 (<- Automatic Transmission Fluid, you can see how thin it is)
GL-4 MTL 70w80 == kv 40 cSt: 56.2, kv 100 cSt: 10.6, VI: 183, PP (c): -50, FP (c): 232 (<- Basically a Synchromesh/max range of fluid)
GL-4 MT-85 75w85 = kv 40 cSt: 64.3, kv 100 cSt: 12.0, VI: 172, PP (c): -48, FP (c): 236 (<- Their new "in-between" stuff)
GL-4 MT-90 75w90 = kv 40 cSt: 90.0, kv 100 cSt: 15.6, VI: 185, PP (c): -45, FP (c): 240 (<- A "normal" ranged GL-4 75w90)
GL-5+ 75w90 NS == kv 40 cSt: 95.0, kv 100 cSt: 15.6, VI: 176, PP (c): -45, FP (c): 221 (<- A GL-5 fluid for transmissions)
GL-5 75w90 ===== kv 40 cSt: 115., kv 100 cSt: 16.4, VI: 155, PP (c): -45, FP (c): 227 (<- For differentials, you can see how much thicker it is)

Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS:
GL-4 75w90 ===== kv 40 cSt: 76.0, kv 100 cSt: 15.4, VI: 211, PP (c): -54, FP (c): 186

Amsoil MTG:
GL-4 75w90 ===== kv 40 cSt: 84.5, kv 100 cSt: 14.7, VI: 181, PP (c): -46, FP (c): 204
 
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ATFs would be ideal, as they can take more heat and pressure than anything. After all, the heat and pressure in the fluid coupling that is an auto trans FAR exceeds anything you can make in a car MT.

That said, the trans has to be designed for it, with closer gear tolerances and smaller fluid passages. This trans is clearly designed, "old school" with big fat gear tolerances and fluid passages so, it would commit seppuku if lubed with ATF.

I wish all manufacturers of trans outside of OTR and HD trucks, would agree to go the ATF route. Cheap, great protection, better mileage and delivered power, where's the loss?
 
Having forgotten completely about this thread I went out and bought some Royal Purple Max Gear. I like it a lot. Even though I tossed it in the day before a track even and still found myself grinding 3rd a couple times. :( Having said that, since I've had no issues. Shift feel has improved. Although I'm not apposed to changing it up again if something better is presented. I didn't know when the last time this car had ever received a trans fluid change. So knowing it was punished after almost 100 degrees ambient temperature and god knows internal temp for around 10 hours I was looking forward to changing it to anything after getting back from vacation. I missed 3rd a few times cruising around Myrtle, too...

Who's used Redline with any kind of success with similar scenarios? If any... ?
 
I am, after finding the 'sweet spot' on my short shift plate I almost NEVER grind 3rd. I'd still like to try the XT-M5-QS stuff, though.
 
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