77 Horsepower!

[kwiktsi]

OK guys, I just got off the phone with Marco from Magnus- he doesn't want to have to come down here and slap you guys around with the reality stick ..

223 whp with just exhuast, MBC (he said it was spiking past 9psi, but no more than 10-11) and K&N. Thank you, please drive through..

xsiv does not **** around with BS- he is serious and he is serious about doing what he has to do to take the car as far as it will go.

Marco said that he came by to pick up his dyno sheet to show you guys yesterday, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said "**** it, they're not worth it".... All this typical message board bulls*** is ridiculous.. WOW- a 223 whp TURBO CAR- NO WAAAYY!!!
Joe

 

[kwiktsi]

Just curious, how do you know it runs rich on hot days and leaner on cold? I take it you have a wideband? Also, richer when hot, could just be a precaution taken by the ECU. Who knows?

My thinking is this: yes, above 4500rpm @ WOT it's in open loop. But AFAIK, that just means that it's running a fixed air:fuel ratio and not paying attention to O2 sensors to see how things were burned. I'd think that it would still have to pay attention to the MAF to see how much air was being drawn in, or else it could lead to big drivability issues down the line. I really can't back up what I'm saying, but that just makes sense to me.



Did it have a MAS or a MAP?





Nuts! I wish our engines could fare that well so easily.

I am with you in believing that the ECU would still have to pay attention to the MAF for adjustments, especially since it still monitors airflow for fuel cut, but I have heard it to be different by many sources.. Unless the maps are just extremely rich based on airflow, which I am starting to think may be possible. If the car goes into open loop and bases fuel on a predetermined map above 4500, how come with the MAF unhooked from the tube (got bored and tested this) it will just go lean and fall on it's face under boost no matter what the RPM? If it were predetermined, it would still run the same above 4500 with no maf..

Good call on the RX7- MAP. nice catch, it slipped my mind completely..
Joe

 

[AGR]

Dang Joe!! That is amazing!! 223 whp!!

 

[Kooldino]

Joe hit the nail on the head, the car goes open look right around 4.5k rpms, thus ignoting most sensors and going with a predetermined fuel map. So by adding more air there, you will make more power by leaning out to a more stoich mix.

Well, you don't WANT stoich on a boosted car. But leaner than stock is good.

If you look at the dyno chart, you can see where the car went to open loop, and it made the most power in the upper rpm band. It barely hit 200 hp before 4.5k rpms,

?? @ 4.5K RPMs it's about 175...nowhere near 200.

where it will match what it thinks is proper fuel for the air injested. That is where a product like HKS AFC will come into play.

I dunno if an AFC will work with an MSP...it shouldn't but it may.

 

[Kooldino]

OK guys, I just got off the phone with Marco from Magnus- he doesn't want to have to come down here and slap you guys around with the reality stick ..

223 whp with just exhuast, MBC (he said it was spiking past 9psi, but no more than 10-11) and K&N. Thank you, please drive through..

Whoa whoa whoa..."just spiking" to 11psi is twice the gain noted in the original claim. Now we're talking +4psi instead of +2psi. If anything this hurts your argument more than it helps it...

Marco said that he came by to pick up his dyno sheet to show you guys yesterday, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said "**** it, they're not worth it".... All this typical message board bulls*** is ridiculous.. WOW- a 223 whp TURBO CAR- NO WAAAYY!!!
Joe

No, it's the "223whp on a car that comes with 170chp and has a couple of MINOR mods" factor that makes us all so suspiscious.

 

[Kooldino]

I am with you in believing that the ECU would still have to pay attention to the MAF for adjustments, especially since it still monitors airflow for fuel cut, but I have heard it to be different by many sources.. Unless the maps are just extremely rich based on airflow, which I am starting to think may be possible.

Yeah, that's my belief...that they are rich based on AIRFLOW, but it's just saying "oh, we're in open loop, dump X amount of fuel at Y RPM" that sounds silly to me. Like I said and you seem to agree with, that would cause issues.

If the car goes into open loop and bases fuel on a predetermined map above 4500, how come with the MAF unhooked from the tube (got bored and tested this) it will just go lean and fall on it's face under boost no matter what the RPM? If it were predetermined, it would still run the same above 4500 with no maf..

While I've never tried this before it backs up my theory. Good work! Makes perfect sense though. Anyway, it just goes with my point that "adding air" isn't going to lean out fuel in open loop.

Good call on the RX7- MAP. nice catch, it slipped my mind completely..
Joe

Word.




EDITED for a confusing setence above.

 

[kwiktsi]

Whoa whoa whoa..."just spiking" to 11psi is twice the gain noted in the original claim. Now we're talking +4psi instead of +2psi. If anything this hurts your argument more than it helps it...



No, it's the "223whp on a car that comes with 170chp and has a couple of MINOR mods" factor that makes us all so suspiscious.

Spiking is not holding at 11 psi.. Bottom line is a STOCK MSP with an MBC, turboback exhaust and K&N did 223 to the wheels at APPROXIMATELY 10 psi.. Let me rephrase this so I don't get the" you think the MSP is gods gift" s***- a Protege with a Garret GT25R turbo, 3" exhaust and 10 psi with slightly reduced timing and a more aggressive fuel curve (MSP ECU) put 223 hp to the wheels.

I personally could care ******* less if it was 9 psi or 11 psi. Also, just in case you missed it- a lot of stock MSP's are only putting 5 psi out, so who's to say that the car they are comparing the numbers to was 6.9? If that one was only 5, then we have a 4 psi increase plus a free flowing exha... You know what, **** it.. We are all lying. Marco who builds 800 hp 4 cylinders is making it up for a whopping 223 hp. Christ...
Joe

 

[AGR]

Joe:
....some, simply do not want us to be happy. Funny; how everyone here (especially others with cars other than MSPs) are experts.

Personally; I have no experience - but what a lot of naysayers. Goodness!

 

[kwiktsi]

Yeah, that's my belief...that they are rich based on AIRFLOW, but it's just just saying "oh, we're in open loop, dump X amount of fuel at Y RPM". Like I said and you seem to agree with, that would cause issues.



While I've never tried this before it backs up my theory. Good work! Makes perfect sense though. Anyway, it just goes with my point that "adding air" isn't going to lean out fuel in open loop.



Word.

When I first got this car and I heard that it just dumps fuel, that made it no better than a carburetor in my eyes and I feel as you do- it would cause drivability issues. If not drivability, definately tunning issues- which we have, so it still may hold some water.. It is definately RPM based though, at 4500, the car goes extremely rich. I am torn I think it would still have to use the MAF, but everything points to no (aside from my test)- dropping the FP helps, the car runs drastically better in cold weather than warm, etc.. It has me stumped .. I was told that the Miatas do the same thing- just goes to a default map and that is it.. I will know more soon enough, I am doing a bunch of tests to see how much it uses the MAF up top..
Joe

 

[kwiktsi]

No, it's the "223whp on a car that comes with 170chp and has a couple of MINOR mods" factor that makes us all so suspiscious. [/B]

Not to disagree anymore, but it is those first few "minor mods" that make all the difference. It will not be this easy to get another 70+ HP out of it... Like Marco even said- the first ~$1500 is what gets you hooked because you can't believe the gains you just got. After that, it is $3000 for the same gain, and so on.... Turbo cars are great for the first round of free and cheap mods as for bang for the buck... It is the next round that hurts the wallet if you are going for bang for the buck .
Joe

 

[boostisgood]

Dear lord, this has turned into a MSP v the world debate here. Dont believe that is fine. See you will. It is human nature to be skeptical. I just still dont understand why you dont believe the damn dyno chart he had provided?

Alas, Im out of this thread, and possibly off the board, and yes, all you non MSP owners, and a few MSp owners, who seem to be the (i got a spool/BEGI/homemade turbo kit) know it alls when it comes to boost, just HAVE to be right cause you cannot obtain these numbers with your BIGGER turbo kits. Just remember, your ECU (minus Terry with the stand alone) is not tuned for boost at all, and yes our ECU may be bad, but it is programmed for boost.

Also, Joe if ya need, hit me up on AIM at ilovemyspeed , if i dont post my dyno sheet after the MBC and SRI and FPR is installed next week. You can post it, if you dont leave too.

 

[Kooldino]

Spiking is not holding at 11 psi..

Agreed, but it will undoubtedly affect those dyno #'s.

Bottom line is a STOCK MSP with an MBC, turboback exhaust and K&N did 223 to the wheels at APPROXIMATELY 10 psi.. Let me rephrase this so I don't get the" you think the MSP is gods gift" s***- a Protege with a Garret GT25R turbo, 3" exhaust and 10 psi with slightly reduced timing and a more aggressive fuel curve (MSP ECU) put 223 hp to the wheels.

I still don't believe the dyno, but at least it's closer to being possible in my eyes.

I personally could care ******* less if it was 9 psi or 11 psi.

To me it makes a difference since the orignal claim was 9psi.

Also, just in case you missed it- a lot of stock MSP's are only putting 5 psi out, so who's to say that the car they are comparing the numbers to was 6.9? If that one was only 5, then we have a 4 psi increase plus a free flowing exha... You know what, **** it.. We are all lying.

I hear ya, but Mazda spec is ~6.9psi, and a lot of members reported that number. There were HUGE debates about this before the MSP came out. Maybe a few people got 5psi, or maybe their boost gauge was hooked up wrong...who knows.

Marco who builds 800 hp 4 cylinders is making it up for a whopping 223 hp. Christ...
Joe

I'm not saying that he's making it up, I'm just saying that a 9psi MSP w/ an air filter and an exhaust isn't making 223 to the wheels.

"800"hp 4 bangers, eh? (note my quotes around the number...hehe)

 

[Kooldino]

Joe:
....some, simply do not want us to be happy.

LOL, I don't think you understand...if you could pull those gains on your car, then with a bigger/better FMIC, metal piping and a bigger turbo, guys like me should see even better gains from similar mods. My point is that we WANT you to be happy, and we WISH that those minor mods would give such a HUGE gain. I REALLY REALLY do wish it were true.

Funny; how everyone here (especially others with cars other than MSPs) are experts.

How is it funny? Because we've been researching and toying with the FS-DE for 2 years now while most of you guys have been at it for a few months? It would make sense for guys with boosted MP3s and older MP5s to know more about it...since we had to do all of the research just to get where we are.

 

[Kooldino]

Not to disagree anymore, but it is those first few "minor mods" that make all the difference. It will not be this easy to get another 70+ HP out of it...

Of course...it's the law of diminishing returns at that point.

Like Marco even said- the first ~$1500 is what gets you hooked because you can't believe the gains you just got. After that, it is $3000 for the same gain, and so on.... Turbo cars are great for the first round of free and cheap mods as for bang for the buck... It is the next round that hurts the wallet if you are going for bang for the buck .
Joe

While I agree with your logic, I've NEVER seen ANY turbo car gain 50% extra whp from "2 psi", an air filter, and an exhaust. It's just way too outlandish.

 

[AGR]

170hp or 230hp - doesn't matter! I will be happy regardless.

It's really that simple.

I'm not out there looking for races against other brands. Not interested. I don't go to the drag strip (ho hum).

If anything; I would like to eventually go to a road racing school, and possibly some autocrossing.

I am a racing enthusiast from many years back, and probably have a much greater knowledge of racing (not Import racing), than most here. I have been following Formula 1, Champ Car, and Sports Car racing probably longer than many of you have been on this earth. Actually; I'm sure if it.

If some nice gains are obtained; I may very well be interested. My little speeding ticket a few months took some wind from my sails. Ha! But; I find this all very interesting, and am very curious to see final numbers.

 

[Kooldino]

Dear lord, this has turned into a MSP v the world debate here. Dont believe that is fine. See you will. It is human nature to be skeptical. I just still dont understand why you dont believe the damn dyno chart he had provided?

When I see a baseline of an MSP on THAT dyno, and then another run of that same MSP with the same mods, and there's a video tape on the details such as the boost gauge, etc, then I'll believe it. It just sounds so far from realistic that it's very hard to believe.

<X files>

I want to believe.

</X files>

Alas, Im out of this thread, and possibly off the board,

Off the board? Because we're having a civilized disagreement?

and yes, all you non MSP owners, and a few MSp owners, who seem to be the (i got a spool/BEGI/homemade turbo kit) know it alls when it comes to boost, just HAVE to be right cause you cannot obtain these numbers with your BIGGER turbo kits.

ROFL, yeah, that's it. It's penis envy. Not that fact that you're making over 150% of your original WHP with no major mods.

Just remember, your ECU (minus Terry with the stand alone) is not tuned for boost at all, and yes our ECU may be bad, but it is programmed for boost.

Agreed. BUT, even Terry's ECU which is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR HIS CAR only pulled 210 or so whp with a 16g @ 8psi and a nice FMIC. It's facts like that which make the claim seem so unreasonable.

Also, Joe if ya need, hit me up on AIM at ilovemyspeed , if i dont post my dyno sheet after the MBC and SRI and FPR is installed next week. You can post it, if you dont leave too.

 

[boostisgood]

Do you not understand it is easier to make more hp with minimal mods on a boosted engine then an NA engine ? How is that concept hard to believe? Ill tell ya, it took a 3+ grand turbo system to reach my rated hp in my MSP for you. Now someone improves basic air flow characteristics, and gains mad WHP. Not hard, go read some DSM, WRX boards and see what they get with these simple mods.


Im jsut sick of all the negativity towards the MSP in general anymore. THIS is why I feel I whould leave. I can do what I need on my own, come back PROVE WITH DYNO/VIDEO/AUDIO/SWORN STATEMENT FROM THE POPE, and some ass would STILL hate and be like thats :bs: Its just sad anymore to see forums here to help, and CONSTSRUCTAVLEY criticise get to this point.

 

[Kooldino]

Do you not understand it is easier to make more hp with minimal mods on a boosted engine then an NA engine ?

LOL, yes I understand that.

How is that concept hard to believe?

It's not. But the AMOUNT of power you guys are claiming is just silly to me.

Ill tell ya, it took a 3+ grand turbo system to reach my rated hp in my MSP for you.

Not quite. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm putting down more power than a stock MSP.

Now someone improves basic air flow characteristics, and gains mad WHP. Not hard, go read some DSM, WRX boards and see what they get with these simple mods.

I do. Frequently. I am a member of a couple of Suby/DSM boards. And they don't get anywhere NEAR 50% extra WHP with exhaust, 2psi, and an intake. In fact, go post the original post in this thread on nasioc.com so they can all laugh at you. If you want an example, I have a friend w/ a WRX...he took it to the track while stock and ran low 14's. Then he did an MKiii BPM 3" turbo back exhaust with an up-pipe, etc etc and a JoeP MBC (which allowed him to get better boost in 1st gear as well). He added 2psi. I did drop his 1/4 mile time (on RACE GAS) a bit...down to a 13.8 or so. But if it gave him anywhere NEAR 50% extra WHP (for basically the same mods that you guys are claiming did on our car) then it would have EASILY put him in the low 13's. Just an example.

Im jsut sick of all the negativity towards the MSP in general anymore.

??? What negativity? It's a great car.

THIS is why I feel I whould leave. I can do what I need on my own, come back PROVE WITH DYNO/VIDEO/AUDIO/SWORN STATEMENT FROM THE POPE, and some ass would STILL hate and be like thats :bs: Its just sad anymore to see forums here to help, and CONSTSRUCTAVLEY criticise get to this point.

Excuse me for not trusting the dyno sheet. We've already had more info come out of the woodwork with the "boost spiking", etc. That right there should show that things are a little sketchy since that detail was originally left out. Who knows what other variables we don't know about.

 

[1sty]

Is fun speading truth and experience of so many by yourslef, Huh Kool.
I had the plesure yestureday .

Facts!
1. Saying the MSp will more easily produce power witht he same mods as say Kooldinos and my car is simply worng. Why. Easy WE ALSO HAVE TURBOS! The Debate is not the MSP as a turbo car versus a NA MP3 and the power they will produce with the same mods. The debat is HOW an MSP can yeild far greater numbers with the same mods then any other TURBO PROTEGE!
Make the MSP versus the world or versus and NA car again and your a knob!

2. No turbo car has ever seen gains like the % we are seeing via the MSP dyno sheet. Not honda, subaru or any other.

3. THe MSP has been in your guys hands to tune for 3 months. We have had TURBO proteges on the road long before the MSPs original intended release.

4. No one is trying to make anyone else "unhappy" what kind of pussification is that. We want answers. Thats it. Make a logical argument why the MSP can make mroe the twice what any other TURBO protege can with the same mods and we will be satesfied.

Enjoy!

 

[boostisgood]

Guys, if you wanna talk about this in real time, I would love to over AIM. Posting here is just takin too much bandwith. You guys can try me at Ilovemyspeed for a little while tonight. Im goin to see 2F 2F at the drive in. (flame away, its just entertainment to me ) But will be on before and after.

Im not trying to fight with anymoe, and realize I can be an ass too. Sorry for the heatedness in some of my posts.