Jeff@Tri-Point
Member
i seriously doubt it was 240 whp. Our cars aren't even pushing that to the wheels. I dont know were he got his engine built but our engines use to cost 30k...Installshield 2 said:
200whp. NA. What does it take?
- Thread starter Gen1GT
- Start date
Ya, I'm not sure about that. R&D probably cost $13 alone. What about parts and labour. I'm sorry, but just the parts for a 240whp engine, that originally had 130crank..well. Motec would cost $6,000 just by itself. Getting an engine fully blueprinted and balanced would cost $6000.
Install, this isn't a continuation of the imfamous 'FS Cams..' thread. So no-one's even argueing that anymore, I just wanted to share some information I had come across about what it takes to make NA power.
Install, this isn't a continuation of the imfamous 'FS Cams..' thread. So no-one's even argueing that anymore, I just wanted to share some information I had come across about what it takes to make NA power.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
I stand corrected...actually you are correct that the article mentioned the goal was 240whp, and that they were "within 10whp on ridiculous compression"...which bordered on the reason for such frequent grenades...but being that is mentione that it was "extremely peaky" maybe they were pretty close...They claimed although the engine was making great peak power, they were having trouble with usable powerband (was an on/off type of band)...and that a lot more research needed to be done to remedy that...ProPartsUSA.COM said:
that article was pretty old though...Someone PDF'd it and stuck on the pclub a while ago...but that kid left that board and took all of his articles with him...
and why the hell did they cost 30k? Sunbelt's engines? the most expensive engines I heard from them were in the $17,000 neighborhood...what all did you guys do to it?...were you forging titanium blocks, rods, pistons, cranks, heads...etc (that is a rhetorical question, I believe the SCCA rules for the Speed cars are against that)
In either case I still think this is getting screwed up...The FS is inefficient for breathing from the factory...so clear that up...start with high quality bolt-ons...forget about an intake at first, you can build a better one later...But after you get rid of the stock downpipe (#2 most restrictive stock piece...AWR header fixes that)...get started on the ECU...absolutely nothing other than a standalone...NOTHING will happen without a standalone...If you are on a crazy budget you can look into a Link Plus2 EMS pnp, which will come in just under 1 grand...but no learning abiltiy, if you don't have easy access to a dyno all the time look into Nick's AEM pnp...after the new ECU is in there, pull the engine...starting looking into low rod ratio'd engine's cam specs...do a ton of research and learn about why the FS sucks so bad at high rpm (and what you do about it)...wait to mess with the cams until last...rip the head off and look into new valves (bigger intake) and assorted equipment associated with them...then deal with the forged internals...I went with aluminum for speeds sake...but may not again...with a static CR of around 12:1 you can definately get north of 150whp, as long as its tuned properly...and you can still deal with some knife-edging of the crank for even more weight savings...
Then get start figuring the cam specs to complete everything...with high tensile internals, and a newly balanced crank 7500rpm + should not be too much of an order...There may be some harmonic related worries, that I am worried about right now, come into play...but we are not going for reliability right now...anyway you can then get some good porting work done and a 2.5" exhaust or so...that should be all you need for excellent power...
again I am guessing that you will not make more than 190whp with street gas out of this thing...that theoretically is nearly 220bhp out of a 2.0l engine...But it CAN be done...its not cheap, its not easy, but it definately is possible...and the work I mentioned above will not cost nearly $20,000 (at least with whats now available), even if you don't do any of the work yourself...
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
No No No dude...I know, I am not trying to argue with you...didn't mean to come off like a cock...These are my favorite debates anyway, you started a thread designed just for it...Gen1GT said:
So first of all...You do not need a $6,000 motec for this app...it will have so much more control than you would ever need on this dinosaur...a lot of racers prefer them do to familiarity with the software...but almost every standalone properly tuned will give you the same power...
I probably should have ditched that article...I agree it appears to have some holes...But I have very little actuall info on the FS as far as this, and the not very many people have even begun to push it yet...
I do not have any quotes for a full blue print...but according to my definition that completes the entire thing...that leaves no work to be done, other than mild porting and polishing (and that is even included in some apps)...So $6,000 would get you a completely built, balanced, and race ready track engine...
I meant that the SCCA guys are probably using Motec. Me personally, my goal is only 170whp, so I'm going to use the stock ECU with E-Manage. I'm not going to give up ANY drivability, and the issues created with stand-alones. Link and Haltech are both great. I'd go with the Link, because 90% of the Miata guys run them, and I'd know where to turn for help.Installshield 2 said:
If you know your way around a mircometer and a dial guage, you can do 50% of the blueprinting yourself. Which can save BAGS of money. That's how I'm doing it. The only thing I'm not doing myself is all the machine work of course. It's all the little things that add up there...gaskets, bearings, balancing, etc
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
yeah you BP guys are blessed with a much more forgiving ECU...We are stuck with the digital equivalent of Heinrich Himmler...But we have some standalones with full learning capablitlies, and with a wideband you can target a/f's and make an extremely driveable and streetable high ouptut NA engine...like you mentioned the nonlearning systems, such as the Link and I believe the haltech's (at least the E6X's) can be much more troublesome for a daily driver...
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
ps install, i'd leave the intake valves alone and make the exhaust valves as close to the same diameter as the intakes as possible. dont forget with NA engines it's all about effiency. with big intake valves you can get heaps of air in there, but you cant get it out
obviously cam sizes can adjust this (reason why i'm having to get my intake cam re-worked smaller), but with bigger exhaust valves, you can keep that huge intake cam there
obviously cam sizes can adjust this (reason why i'm having to get my intake cam re-worked smaller), but with bigger exhaust valves, you can keep that huge intake cam there
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Very True...I was going to use a "back door" attempt, in order to get better scavaging effects through the overlap specs though...With a proper header and good exhaust diameter, you can really take advantage of the right cams in relation to scavaging...As in pulling fresh air into the chambers before TDC of the finishing exhaust stroke/beginning intake stroke during valve overlap...by means of exhaust vacuum...On most low rod'd engines; "slightly" larger intake valves, with a good scuffing of the ports can benefit air flow exponentially...We are hampered by a small bore stock, which leaves us with fairly small valves stock...
You are very correct that the exhaust valving is important too in all this breathing...But that also goes back to how fast our pistons move at a given rpm...The rod angles give extremely good torque, and therefore give extremely powerful exhausts pulses fairly low in the rpm range...That is one reason our stock pipe system gets choked up so quick...it is of decent diameter, but the FS spews exhaust pulses like crazy, even at lower rpm...
So in short the FS will never have too much of a problem pushing exhaust out quickly...The lack of piston dwell though makes it extremely important to take advantage of scavaging as much as possible...
You are very correct that the exhaust valving is important too in all this breathing...But that also goes back to how fast our pistons move at a given rpm...The rod angles give extremely good torque, and therefore give extremely powerful exhausts pulses fairly low in the rpm range...That is one reason our stock pipe system gets choked up so quick...it is of decent diameter, but the FS spews exhaust pulses like crazy, even at lower rpm...
So in short the FS will never have too much of a problem pushing exhaust out quickly...The lack of piston dwell though makes it extremely important to take advantage of scavaging as much as possible...
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
i c....so you're going that way....arrhhhh....i'm trying to go the volumetric efficiency way...
for those who dont know what that is...that's basically what goes in, goes out at the same speed and volume. see with my head work, the exhaust side only flow apx 80% of the intake side, so in theory, the intake side cam (area) should be 20% smaller for maximum efficiency...and therefore maximum torque (note i say torque not hp)
for those who dont know what that is...that's basically what goes in, goes out at the same speed and volume. see with my head work, the exhaust side only flow apx 80% of the intake side, so in theory, the intake side cam (area) should be 20% smaller for maximum efficiency...and therefore maximum torque (note i say torque not hp)
Are you talking about intake/exhaust bias? Because VM the amount of charge that actually enters the combusion chamber as a percentage of the size of the combustion chamber. ie, if you have a 450cc combustion chamber, and you pull in 405cc worth of air/fuel, then you have 90% Volumetric Efficiency. You will always have peak torque at peak VM.twilightprotege said:
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Man I love these discussions...Also note that it is virtually impossible to have similar volumetric efficiency throughout the entire rev-band, which is why you shoot for specs on your intended peak output...
That may be redundant, but just trying to keep it simple in case any NOobOtz are reading...
On a further not Gen1GT...I publically apoligize for everything degrading or bad I said in the "old" thread...I didn't mean to come off like a dick...You definately know your s***, and are definately worth having around...regardless of which engine you actually modify...
That may be redundant, but just trying to keep it simple in case any NOobOtz are reading...
On a further not Gen1GT...I publically apoligize for everything degrading or bad I said in the "old" thread...I didn't mean to come off like a dick...You definately know your s***, and are definately worth having around...regardless of which engine you actually modify...
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Hey, thanks man. That means a lot, since I know you really know your s*** too. There are a lot more informative and educated guys on this board than some others I've been on. I may get in trouble for mentioning it, but on the Toronto Protege Club board, it's all a bunch of idiots asking, "how do I install lighted washer nozzels?" or claiming, "I got 16hp from my CAI!"Installshield 2 said:
With you guys, I can share real information, or ask real questions and know it's being said in the right place. I honestly can't wait to see how everyone's build turns out. I'll probably always be the skeptic though, which can be good sometimes to keep everyone grounded. (flash)
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
yeah you definately cant have 100% (or more) VE at low rpm and expect the engine to produce heaps of power at high rpm (and vice versa), but i think that if i can aim to have the intake side flowing the same amount as the exhaust side (by making the intake cam smaller), that'll be the best way to get as much power NA as i can
Glowspeedp5
Member
- :
- 2002 Mazda Protege5
Okay you can say bulls***, Dudes on crack, so on and so forth but I am stating fact. Many morons said the same s*** until I should up at an import fest and took first place. The stock ecu handle that with stock injectors. I actually lost HP when I used the MAF from an RX7. I used 7-11 material to reduce heat soak in the intake manifold and throttle body. 7-11 material is a high temp carbon material that is 1/4thick. After running the car hard for an hour you could put your hand on the intake without being burnt. Also you are pushing in cool air not hot heat soak air. If you want me to pull out physics and formula I will.
If you take a BP head shave (aka DECK IT) .80 you will raise the compression ratio to 10.35 to 1. I then got rods and pistons and raised the compression ratio to 13 to 1 with stock ecu. If I was to get haltech I would probably be in the 12's. If you use your mind and not listen to what other people have to say you do fine. I
Looking at the 2.0 fs motor it easy to make 200 whp. But the key factor this time is the ecu. OB2 computers learn but not intense like the OB1. So Haltech or another one.
If you want a fast turbo and cannot get a GTR or GTX bp motor go to the salvage yard and get a 1.8 bp SOHC motor or just the block that compression ratio is 8.0 to 1 then put a DOHC head onto it raises the compression ratio to 8.25 to 1. Then put a t3 or t4 turbo at 20 psi. Just look at miata magzine several of those guys did that and look at what they can do...
If you take a BP head shave (aka DECK IT) .80 you will raise the compression ratio to 10.35 to 1. I then got rods and pistons and raised the compression ratio to 13 to 1 with stock ecu. If I was to get haltech I would probably be in the 12's. If you use your mind and not listen to what other people have to say you do fine. I
Looking at the 2.0 fs motor it easy to make 200 whp. But the key factor this time is the ecu. OB2 computers learn but not intense like the OB1. So Haltech or another one.
If you want a fast turbo and cannot get a GTR or GTX bp motor go to the salvage yard and get a 1.8 bp SOHC motor or just the block that compression ratio is 8.0 to 1 then put a DOHC head onto it raises the compression ratio to 8.25 to 1. Then put a t3 or t4 turbo at 20 psi. Just look at miata magzine several of those guys did that and look at what they can do...
I'm not catching everying you're saying here. You couldn't deck the BP head .80, because you'd cut the valves right off first of all. Secondly, what computer you choose to use has nothing to do with compression ratio. Are you going to sit there and tell me that stock computer and injectors can handle 160whp?Glowspeedp5 said:
The FS CAN make 200whp, but not EASY.....
You showed up at importfest and took first place. You need to be more specific. Was this a drag event? Took first place in what? You won bracket racing or you had the fastest car? You had a BP, making how much power?
You're very vague and hard to understand.....
Glowspeedp5
Member
- :
- 2002 Mazda Protege5
I'm not catching everying you're saying here. You couldn't deck the BP head .80, because you'd cut the valves right off first of all. Secondly, what computer you choose to use has nothing to do with compression ratio. Are you going to sit there and tell me that stock computer and injectors can handle 160whp?
The FS CAN make 200whp, but not EASY.....
You showed up at importfest and took first place. You need to be more specific. Was this a drag event? Took first place in what? You won bracket racing or you had the fastest car? You had a BP, making how much power?
You're very vague and hard to understand.....
Let me repeat myself. First off your are the vague one.
1)I did type .80 and it should be .080
2)No s*** sherlock. I said I USED THE STOCK ECU with 13 to 1 compression ratio. The car did 13.5. I did not get all of its power out of the step up because I did not have a stand alone computer.
It was battle of the imports 2000 at Capital Raceway in Crofton, Maryland. I Got second place the year before. (BRACKET) All Motor without Motor swap. Also you can put the Probe gt 2.5 probe motor in your car but that is a waste.
Just think about weight. I was running @ the wheels 181 whp.
Bull Frog aka GUDE makes a kit like what I explained. It will make your car run in the 14's in the quarter mile. Just do your research. Learn from others. AKA read about Honda motors, early ford v4 motors.
Oh in the ford escort gt 91-96 had three diffrent computers.
91 -93(OB1) mazda
93-94(OB1) misitbishie
95-96 (OB2)Ford
Don't believe go to a junk yard and go look...........
Stock transaxle go to 225 whp
Stock computer is good to 180whp..
Want bigger injectors 2nd generation Toyota Supra injectors. Along with Fuel pump plugs right in.
The FS CAN make 200whp, but not EASY.....
You showed up at importfest and took first place. You need to be more specific. Was this a drag event? Took first place in what? You won bracket racing or you had the fastest car? You had a BP, making how much power?
You're very vague and hard to understand.....
Let me repeat myself. First off your are the vague one.
1)I did type .80 and it should be .080
2)No s*** sherlock. I said I USED THE STOCK ECU with 13 to 1 compression ratio. The car did 13.5. I did not get all of its power out of the step up because I did not have a stand alone computer.
It was battle of the imports 2000 at Capital Raceway in Crofton, Maryland. I Got second place the year before. (BRACKET) All Motor without Motor swap. Also you can put the Probe gt 2.5 probe motor in your car but that is a waste.
Just think about weight. I was running @ the wheels 181 whp.
Bull Frog aka GUDE makes a kit like what I explained. It will make your car run in the 14's in the quarter mile. Just do your research. Learn from others. AKA read about Honda motors, early ford v4 motors.
Oh in the ford escort gt 91-96 had three diffrent computers.
91 -93(OB1) mazda
93-94(OB1) misitbishie
95-96 (OB2)Ford
Don't believe go to a junk yard and go look...........
Stock transaxle go to 225 whp
Stock computer is good to 180whp..
Want bigger injectors 2nd generation Toyota Supra injectors. Along with Fuel pump plugs right in.
Dude what's your problem? You word things in a way no-one can understand, then you get pissy because someone questions it. It's not my fault you made typos. Try using punctuation.
Secondly, I know plenty enough about cars and how they work, but I'm constantly doing research because you can never know enough. I've learned nothing from what you've chimed in with.
You were running 181whp with what engine? A BP? If so, please tell me your secret.
That should have said, "I then got rods and pistons WHICH raised the compression ratio to 13:1; with stock ECU"
Secondly, I know plenty enough about cars and how they work, but I'm constantly doing research because you can never know enough. I've learned nothing from what you've chimed in with.
You were running 181whp with what engine? A BP? If so, please tell me your secret.
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
great thread man, i loved all the old NA threads but they always truned into an argument with the trolls telling us that WE said we were gonna make 200whp on the cheap and that is not what anyone ever said. I believe both me and twilight had/have goals of about 170-175whp but if I got 155-160 Id be a very happy man. Basically I am going the standard route most peole go
I/H/E
cams
cam gears
pulleys/flywheel(doesnt really do much)
P&P head and intake mani and then Id be done except maybe an ecu upgrade in the form of a piggyback or inline setup to help with timing, air/fuel and so forth.
Out of everyone else in this thread, except maybe glowboy there, i am happy to claim i know the least, and even happier Im learning so much here and now.
edit: thought Id add that I am still borderline FI/NA, i knida would like to see myself to a mild NA buildup to 130whp or so and tehn do a small FI project boosting 5-8psi and see what that does. This seems to be what intrigues me the most right now, since most people go FI or NA I figure why not both =)
I/H/E
cams
cam gears
pulleys/flywheel(doesnt really do much)
P&P head and intake mani and then Id be done except maybe an ecu upgrade in the form of a piggyback or inline setup to help with timing, air/fuel and so forth.
Out of everyone else in this thread, except maybe glowboy there, i am happy to claim i know the least, and even happier Im learning so much here and now.
edit: thought Id add that I am still borderline FI/NA, i knida would like to see myself to a mild NA buildup to 130whp or so and tehn do a small FI project boosting 5-8psi and see what that does. This seems to be what intrigues me the most right now, since most people go FI or NA I figure why not both =)
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twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
sundevil and all - dyno for my engine is only 3 weeks away then we'll start to see what a FS can start to do. it will be by no means the finished figure. still have lots to do and HEAPS to tune...
then we'll start to see what a FS can start to do. it will be by no means the finished figure. still have lots to do and HEAPS to tune...
