Turbocharging a 2010 Mz3

[fateexceeds]

Having seen the Tri-Point-tuned 2010 Mazda 3s GT sedan from SEMA 2009 (http://www.insideline.com/mazda/mazda3/2010/2010-mazda-3-s-grand-touring-sedan-sema-first-drive.html), I've been thinking a lot lately about what it would take to turbo a regular Mz3. Naturally, my first thought was to see if Tri-Point would be updating their kit for the 2.3L engine to accomodate the new 2.5L engine, so I PMed Nicole from Tri-Point to see if and when they might be releasing it. Unfortunately, she responded that they do not know if they're even going to make a kit for the 2.5L, leaving us 2.5L owners with no options for a complete kit at this time (as far as I can tell from a ton of searching, so please correct me if I'm wrong!).

As a result, I thought it may be good to start a thread here to open a discussion and to have a central place to curate any good information generated for anyone who may want to attempt a turbo build. Now, I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in other parts of the forums regarding other vehicles, but it would be nice to have specific information for the 2010 Mz3 because I'm sure someone will be doing this at some point (if not already). Also, please spare us the ubiquitous "Just buy an MS3 instead!" comments - I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is intrigued by the idea of custom-building a "Mazdaspeed3" sedan. A general rule of thumb is apt here: If you do not have anything constructive to say, please do not post in this thread.

I do not pretend to know much about the subject (most of what I do know is from online reading, mainly using these forums and various vendors' websites), so I would be especially interested to hear from anyone who may have already done such a build or is planning to do so!

 

[fateexceeds]

to get the discussion started, I have a few specific questions I've been wondering about:

1. using stock internals, with a goal of about 300 hp under modest boost (like the SEMA 3), which is the best turbo to use: a rebuilt K04 turbo (such as this one, offered by Protege Garage http://protegegarage.com/1385-reworked-turbo-solution-for-the-mazdaspeed3-and-mazdaspeed6.html); the much more expensive Garrett GT2871R ball-bearing turbo used by Tri-Point on the SEMA 3 (http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-022&Category_Code=GRT); or something else?

2. specific to the 3, what are the pros & cons of a FMIC versus an upgraded TMIC? I've seen that both are being used by MS3 owners on this site but haven't found any good comparisons yet (if someone could link any prior discussions about this, I'd be much obliged). is the piping too long on the FMIC to negate any benefits over the upgraded TMIC?

please explain your reasoning in any responses.

 

[XspeedyD]

well i think the question most people are going to ask is why didn't you just buy a ms3 if your going to dump money into a regular 3. ms3 internals are safe for 300whp, but idk the differences between the engines. a fmic is better than a tmic because it doesnt heat soak by sitting on top of an engine. people use tmic because its an easy swap for the stock one, fmic is most always better. some could say throttle response isn't as great but either way its not much.

 

[fateexceeds]

well i think the question most people are going to ask is why didn't you just buy a ms3 if your going to dump money into a regular 3.

I definitely understand that and anticipated the question. There are several reasons:

first & foremost, I got 0% financing for 60 mos. for the 3s, whereas the best I could get on the MS3 was 4.99% for 72 mos. iirc, the difference in payment was close to $100/mo. (as I've explained in other threads, I was doing the paperwork to buy the MS3 when I found out that the salesperson incorrectly told me 0.0% was available on the MS3).

secondly, I prefer the sedan body style anyway. if there were an MS3 sedan, I would've bought that over the current MS3 or Mz3, regardless of the financing options.

third, I'm pretty confident I could accomplish my goals without spending more than the difference in cost between the MS3 and what I paid for my 3s. heck, if I could piece together my own solution for the price of the Tri-Point kit for the 2.3L engine, then I know I can do it for less.

last but not least, I like the idea of having a custom-turbocharged Mz3 (it will be unique, to a point). I'm sure there are other Mz3 sedan owners who have or will have similar ambitions, so I want to get a discussion going so we can all bounce ideas around, find best practices/suppliers/parts, etc.

ms3 internals are safe for 300whp, but idk the differences between the engines.

the 2.5L is just a bored & stroked version of the 2.3L, but I don't know about any difference in internals either. I'm sure you know this, but it's also port injected, unlike the DISI 2.3L. if I'm not mistaken, some MS3 owners on these forums have safely hit 400 hp on the stock internals.

a fmic is better than a tmic because it doesnt heat soak by sitting on top of an engine. people use tmic because its an easy swap for the stock one, fmic is most always better. some could say throttle response isn't as great but either way its not much.

thanks for the info, I appreciate it! when you say not much difference in throttle response, is it tangible when driving?

 

[XspeedyD]

the 2.5L is just a bored & stroked version of the 2.3L, but I don't know about any difference in internals either. I'm sure you know this, but it's also port injected, unlike the DISI 2.3L. if I'm not mistaken, some MS3 owners on these forums have safely hit 400 hp on the stock internals.

yeah there is one guy at 380 whp with a gt3076 and another guy who was at 400 and is now at 420. it also depends on the tune and how you drive it. don't full boost at low rpms, and like i said make sure you get a solid tune.

idk what tuning options are available for the 3 and those numbers are for the 2.3 mzr disi. from my understanding n/a cars can handle roughly 7-8 lbs of boost.

thanks for the info, I appreciate it! when you say not much difference in throttle response, is it tangible when driving?

im sorry, not quite sure what your asking, like if you would notice it? probably not, you will notice turbo lag first. all aftermarket systems i have seen have a fmic, there isnt much point to trying to make a tmic kit because a mount would have to be added to the engine and the hood most likely will have clearance issues, plus heat-soak. fmic ftw.

 

[fateexceeds]

im sorry, not quite sure what your asking, like if you would notice it? probably not, you will notice turbo lag first. all aftermarket systems i have seen have a fmic, there isnt much point to trying to make a tmic kit because a mount would have to be added to the engine and the hood most likely will have clearance issues, plus heat-soak. fmic ftw.

yeah, that's exactly what I'm asking. thanks for the info.

 

[fateexceeds]

I thought of another pertinent question after discussing this with some members on another forum: is it necessary to add an LSD when turbocharging this car?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm of the opinion that it's not necessary simply because, if you read the review, the SEMA 3 has no LSD and yet no torque steer. I would imagine that you'd only need one if you got into racing or if you're really concerned about driving in bad weather. What does everyone think?

 

[Super Unique]

I thought of another pertinent question after discussing this with some members on another forum: is it necessary to add an LSD when turbocharging this car?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm of the opinion that it's not necessary simply because, if you read the review, the SEMA 3 has no LSD and yet no torque steer. I would imagine that you'd only need one if you got into racing or if you're really concerned about driving in bad weather. What does everyone think?

without some form of LSD , you will never be able to get all the power to the ground. It's really that simple.....

 

[_Chris]

without some form of LSD , you will never be able to get all the power to the ground. It's really that simple.....

I daily drive a FWD car with 250+hp and don't have a LSD in it. Does it have some tq steer, sure but you figure out how to drive it to not have that big of a problem. Will it put the power to the ground better if I had one, yes. But for the money they cost I just went without.

 

[Super Unique]

I daily drive a FWD car with 250+hp and don't have a LSD in it. Does it have some tq steer, sure but you figure out how to drive it to not have that big of a problem. Will it put the power to the ground better if I had one, yes. But for the money they cost I just went without.

it is definitely a problem when trying to go through curves, you will always be slower than a fwd car with the same horsepower but with an LSD. weight shifts and you loose traction badly.

 

[niky]

LSD is nice, but not necessary. If you're going to track the car, you'll want it... but if you're getting the turbo for highway blasts, no need.

AFAIK, the 2.5 gets a forged crank and full-floating pistons... those same parts were lifted from the new 2.5 and stuffed into the new NC MX-5's 2.0. It has a lower redline, but it revs pretty well, anyway.

 

[fateexceeds]

I daily drive a FWD car with 250+hp and don't have a LSD in it. Does it have some tq steer, sure but you figure out how to drive it to not have that big of a problem. Will it put the power to the ground better if I had one, yes. But for the money they cost I just went without.

thanks for the info! what are you driving?

 

[fateexceeds]

AFAIK, the 2.5 gets a forged crank and full-floating pistons...

that's good to know. do you have a source for this info?

 

[niky]

that's good to know. do you have a source for this info?

It was in the press info we got for the MX-5 when we were reviewing the upgraded one late last year. Those changes were supposedly "inherited" from the new 2.5 and are what allow the MX-5 to rev higher than before.

Weird that the 2.5 has such a nasty low redline with the same internals, though... but I suppose that's a given, as it's basically an ultra-long stroke 2.0.

 

[f2t]

The 2.5l has dished pistons but wouldn't be able to take much boost bc of those crazy skinny rods. if you were to boost it the boost would have to be low and of course tuned for to last any amount of time.

 

[Hschlick84]

What would the boost amount be if it was low end? 5lbs max? I see this as the best source to upgrade the power. I'm sure in the future, there will be aftermarket turbo kits that are utilized for the 2.0/2.5 engines.

 

[skatethesea]

Okay, here is what you will need:
Turbo - the garret GT2871R will give you quick spool and consistent boost.
manifold- you will need a one off because there isnt one on the market yet. That alone will be the most expensive part.
FMIC/TMIC-either one again will be a one off. Now I am sure you can piece together something from other cars.
Engine Management-There isnt even one out for the MS3 yet that is easily tuned by rooks so you will need a dyno hero on your side (expensive)
BOV/Wastegate/Boost Controller-expensive
Colder spark plugs-cheap as hell
clutch and pressure plate-there should be one out or at least something from another car should work.
Depending on application a cryo treated Diff or just something stronger.
exhaust-which can be bought but you would have to worry about the flange from the turbo or DP matching up. Hanger locations and what not. Easy fixes with tac welding.
In tank fuel pump- Walboro255 should do the job.
Not sure if the 2.5 is DI but if so then a HPFP
Might need better flowing injectors.
Might need stronger valve springs and retainers
and a very good understanding of how an engine works and how to piece it all together. In the end it will cost more to build this kit just because there isnt a single company making a turbo kit for this vehicle. So you cant really piece something together if there arent 'pieces' to use. Most will be one off, and you would have to be willing to take the chance of blowing your engine to see how far it can go and if it can be reliable as a 300whp daily driver. If anything, I would say just buy a MZR 2.3 DIZI and swap it. It would probably be cheaper.

 

[f2t]

Okay, here is what you will need:
Turbo - the garret GT2871R will give you quick spool and consistent boost.
manifold- you will need a one off because there isnt one on the market yet. That alone will be the most expensive part.
FMIC/TMIC-either one again will be a one off. Now I am sure you can piece together something from other cars.
Engine Management-There isnt even one out for the MS3 yet that is easily tuned by rooks so you will need a dyno hero on your side (expensive)
BOV/Wastegate/Boost Controller-expensive
Colder spark plugs-cheap as hell
clutch and pressure plate-there should be one out or at least something from another car should work.
Depending on application a cryo treated Diff or just something stronger.
exhaust-which can be bought but you would have to worry about the flange from the turbo or DP matching up. Hanger locations and what not. Easy fixes with tac welding.
In tank fuel pump- Walboro255 should do the job.
Not sure if the 2.5 is DI but if so then a HPFP
Might need better flowing injectors.
Might need stronger valve springs and retainers
and a very good understanding of how an engine works and how to piece it all together. In the end it will cost more to build this kit just because there isnt a single company making a turbo kit for this vehicle. So you cant really piece something together if there arent 'pieces' to use. Most will be one off, and you would have to be willing to take the chance of blowing your engine to see how far it can go and if it can be reliable as a 300whp daily driver. If anything, I would say just buy a MZR 2.3 DIZI and swap it. It would probably be cheaper.

no it wont it will be just as expensive or more depending on what your trying to achieve. over time if you keep the boost low your going to loose compression its just a matter of time.(2.5L)

 

[skatethesea]

I didnt want to start a debate on it. I was just posting a list of the minimum requirements to go FI from an NA platform. I myself have learned what happens when you dont just pay for the best parts and the best tuners right from the get go. it will cost you double to fix it, then what you paid to boost it. but let's be real and know that if you boost your car, you will start at 5lbs maybe. How long will that last? You will get used to 100 extra horsepower in a two or three weeks. Then you want more. Then you get used to it and then you want more again. I would rather start with a factory boosted engine OR just go all out right in the beginning and get forged internals, a built head, proper gaskets, head studs, and all the fore-mentioned parts and start out at five pounds with the hopes of taking it to 12-15lbs. That is just my opinion and personal experience.

On a side note. OP, what is your goal for turboing the MZ3? Just for street use, light autocross, or occassional trips to the drap strip?

 

[fateexceeds]

I didnt want to start a debate on it. I was just posting a list of the minimum requirements to go FI from an NA platform. I myself have learned what happens when you dont just pay for the best parts and the best tuners right from the get go. it will cost you double to fix it, then what you paid to boost it. but let's be real and know that if you boost your car, you will start at 5lbs maybe. How long will that last? You will get used to 100 extra horsepower in a two or three weeks. Then you want more. Then you get used to it and then you want more again. I would rather start with a factory boosted engine OR just go all out right in the beginning and get forged internals, a built head, proper gaskets, head studs, and all the fore-mentioned parts and start out at five pounds with the hopes of taking it to 12-15lbs. That is just my opinion and personal experience.

On a side note. OP, what is your goal for turboing the MZ3? Just for street use, light autocross, or occassional trips to the drap strip?

Thanks for your input! I'm not even sure I'd like to tackle this project yet, but if I were to do it, I would be aiming for 250-300 hp, for autocross and just for fun on the street.