Water/Air Intercooler

[ArkosP5]

What are the drawbacks to one of these? It would seem like it would reduce the amount of piping/length of travel...

 

[Tonpow]

Complexity. Other than that a good air/water setup is a nice option for a street car.

 

[big_ben]

Other than that a good air/water setup is a nice option for a street car.

No it's not at all. If it was, you would see them a lot on other cars. But you don't because it's not a good setup on street cars. The water heats up after a while and the intercooler does no good. This is why drag cars put ice in their intercoolers because they are only going a quarter mile. Air to air is the best for daily driving uses.

 

[njaremka]

an air/water set up will not be as efficient as an air/air set up because, as noted above, the water will heat up and not cool the intake charge as effectively as an air/air set up. with a properly sized air/air set up, you can reduce your intake charge to be almost the same as ambient air temp. you will NEVER be able to do this with an air/water set up.

 

[Kooldino]

I don't know about cars, but in the computer world, water cooling is much more efficient than air.

 

[ArkosP5]

What about something like this?

Refrigerated Intercooler

 

[big_ben]

That is sweet! That is a very good idea. It sounds like it would work. It's just like using ice in the intercooler. A temp that is only 9 degrees above the ambient temp is amazing! I bet if he used water/alcohol injection also he would get under the ambient temp. That is awesome. I wish I had the time to do little experiments like that.

 

[ArkosP5]

He also stated somewhere on that page, that it actually made the AC for the car work better, ... (?)

 

[big_ben]

water cooling is much more efficient than air.

It is more efficient, but the water will only cool the air down to the temp of the water unless a direct mist is used in the air stream. When the water starts to heat up, the air is heated also though. But when using a water mist in the air stream, the tiny atomized droplets of water will absorb tremendous amounts of heat.

 

[MazdaT]

I don't think that the results of that test were very good. But there are a lot of veriables to get right, like amount of freon, how fast the freon circulates, etc.

The air to water intercooler can be made to work without heat soaking the water. It requires a heat exchanger. But most people use air to air because it is easy, cheaper, and proven. The only situations for street cars that benefit are cars that don't have room for a air to air, e.g. mr2, nsx.

 

[big_ben]

I don't think that the results of that test were very good.

Those were very good test results. Do you realize the air temps reach upwards of around 200 degrees F on a turbo car without an intercooler. An intercooler only reduces those temps by about 30 to 50 degrees. Cars that use air/water intercoolers have a giant radiator for the intercooler.

 

[Finnster]

I don't know about cars, but in the computer world, water cooling is much more efficient than air.

I think the point here is that although water has the potential to be a more effective cooling agent, because of its high heat capacity, it is difficult to employ effectively in a car. Obviously car engines don't use air cooling anymore because air connot transfer heat nearly as quick. But on a turbo sysytem, the potential gains to be had by water cooling are not worth the added complexity.

Take for example the GMC Syclone\Typhoon, a turboengine with w/a intercooler. First of all the water can only be as cold as the surrounding air (unless you chill w/ ice, but who does this just driving around?) When the truck first runs, intake temps are lower than an a/a int., bc the water transfers heat more effectively, even though the cooling mediums (air vs water) are the same. However this situation quickly changes as the car runs for two reasons. One (as already stated) the water warms up from the heat from the intake charge. Second, the water res is located under the hood, so soaks up heat from the engine. The water cannot cool the intake charge to less than the water temp So if the water heats to 120F, but the outside temp is 70F, the a/a int would be more effective at this point, for example. (The exact crossover point in efficiency would depend, on your setup. A w/a int at 80F maybe more eff. than an a/a at 70F abient temp, but then decreaingly eff as water heats.)

To employ an w/a in you would need a reservoir, water pump, lines, intercooler, and potentially a radiator to cool water, and prob a bunch of other stuff. Where do you mount the res? Underhood is easy, but gets hotter. Could put in trunk, but is more complex, and you take up space. Plus your adding extra weight and parts that need to be maintained and could potentially fail.
While an a/a just sits there. No worries.

PS. GMC went this route b/c there was nowhere to mount an a/a that would be suitable for a factory setup. The Sy/Ty's were built off of S10 platforms that where never designed to house int, or even such powerful engines. Mounting in front of the rad. disrupted an already overburdened cooling sys. It was not out of pref, but out of practicallity.

I am curious of pressure drops over an a/a vs a w/a int tho...?

 

[APEXistud]

This turned out to be an interesting topic, glad I clicked on it. I think that the custom AC/Water/Air Intercooler setup that he used is cool, but......how many of you guys would be able to invest the time and money into developing one? Not trying to bash the idea, but I'm sure it can easily become very costly. Air/Air Intercoolers are less complex and a hell of a lot easier to design. Dare I use the term no brainer which is why they are used more. Jusrt my thoughts though

 

[ArkosP5]

The way I see it, ...

It will take more brains than money to develop I believe, ... and with the factory warranty, ... something like a turbo is years out, ... which means I'll have plenty of time to piece stuff together. it doesn't really seem that difficult.

ok
1) w/a Intercooler core. Found some cool ones, The ones that Spearco sells seem perfect. From the outlet of the compressor, it would take a left turn (towards the drivers side), go through the intercooler, come back out the opposite way and basically take a turn towards the rear of the car to the throttle body. All of what, ... 3 feet of piping total?

2) Water pump. Pretty much got that covered. Jabsco (I think that was the company) seems to sell two, one you don't want, and the other you do.

3) Radiator/Heat exchanger: This would just be a matter of finding something that would work appropriately. A SMALL radiator from a small car? even to go purchase one wouldn't be too bad.

4) The reservoir. This could be made, or something could be adapted fairly easily. Is there enough room under the hood? I have no idea, .. I would think, ... if you could fit something over the hole the CAIs go through, and maybe even something that went into that cavity, that would work. Just a matter of locating the pump appropriately.

Other than that? hose, ... and a lot more knowledge than I have, ... but with time, and a little effort, I don't think it would be that hard, ...

As far as the refrigerated a/w intercooler, I don't know. I'm sure more searching on the internet, and maybe a few e-mails to the guy in the post above would result in excellent results.

 

[chdesign]

As for the resevor just get another windshield washer tank and put it on the other side of the car in the fender well adn you ahve a resevor take your battery and relocate it to the trunk as I did and you have your space......I had this all planned out a few months ago as I was goign to do water to air intercooled on my turbo kit but sold the kit before I had a chance to try it.......now its all NA for me baby!!! (Turbo Vs. All Motor) (nuts)

 

[MazdaT]

Those were very good test results. Do you realize the air temps reach upwards of around 200 degrees F on a turbo car without an intercooler. An intercooler only reduces those temps by about 30 to 50 degrees. Cars that use air/water intercoolers have a giant radiator for the intercooler.

I am well versed in intercooler efficiency. My turbo is300 runs 7 psi of boost. On an 86 deg day, I was seeing temps before the intercooler of 190 deg, after the intercooler (off the shelf spearco air to air core) 101 deg. That makes my intercooler 85% efficient. That's only ok. You can make a air to air even better with the proper ducting of air.

Project MR2 Article
After leaving interstate drove car on local roads at 35 mph for 8 minutes. Sudden 18 psi run to 6000 rpm in second gear. 82outside temp 173afterturbo temp 103afterintercooler temp

He is only in the 85 to 90% efficieny ball park. And THAT SUCKS. Considering he has the drag of the a/c compressor, the shortened life of the a/c compressor (that is why most manufactures shut them off at full throttle), and he no longer has a/c unless he has 2 compressors on the car. I checked all of his data and it is never better then 90%. Plus he has a major hp loss with the drag of the a/c compressor.

A good air to air will work great on the street. If you have the room, and most mazda's do, the air to air is a good solution. If you don't have the room, or want the ability to use ice water at the track, then the air to water can become a good solution. I prefer the air to air because it is simple, cheaper, and works very well.

Jeff

 

[njaremka]

also with an air/air intercooler, you can plumb a water mist injection in front of the intercooler for an additional boost in cooling. (like on the wrc cars)

 

[big_ben]

Actually it's better if you have the mist right before the throttle body so that the mater doesn't lose it's atomization and start to condense into larger droplets. If it goes through the IC, it will start to collect inside the IC core.

 

[Tonpow]

I think he's talking about spraying water directly on the outside of the intercooler. Air/water on demand so to speak. Your talking about water injection. A topic for another 3+ pages of discussion.

Darn! This topic turned out to be a good one. Too bad I was away from my computer yesterday afternoon!

 

[big_ben]

Oh, ok. Yeah spraying mist on the outside of the IC is also a good way to get a few more horses. But, you cant use those in any type of road race like an auto x. You will get water on the course. But the NX N-tercooler doesn't get anything wet, it just sprays CO2 or N2O on the intercooler which is better than water.