War Against IRAQ...FOR or AGAINST
- Thread starter FuNwaGoN
- Start date
Ok now here is somebody who is informed. I am not saying that you are not american man and I applaud you for having an opinion and being able to back it up. You bring up some good points But what you also have to understand is that you are referring to situations that you cannot compare. You can't compare Vietnam to this and you can't compare World war2 to this. I mean you can't even really compare the first gulf War to what this one is about or for. They each have had their own unique situations and have been dealt with by for the most part completely different people. As far as being involved in other conflicts throughout the world. Maybe you forgot about the some 30,000 or more US troops stationed throught out the world. We cannot be expected to solve every little problem for every person. I mean there was a different agenda in 96 than there is today. I mean the world has changed since then. Or maybe you forgot that they have found evidence showing planning going back that far for sept 11th. Maybe if we had gone in and solved that problem sept 11th wouldn't have happened, but there were more important issues that had to be addresses at the time. The government has a system and wether you think it works or not is up to you but as I mentioned in the above post the last 100 years show that something seems to be working right. Not saying I agree with everything and that certain things couldn't have been done better but when you take care of a country that has several billion people then (and as much as I hate to say this it is true)the death of one person makes an unsignificant amount of difference to the majority of the people. Of course there are many special situations for this but you get what I am saying. Meaning the govt tries to make judgements considered to be in the best interest for the masses. I won't try and pick out each little point because that is not why I did this poll. Like I said before thanks for stating and opinion and then supporting it or defending it and not just dropping a random comment you heard on CNN.
tankbui, thats a great point and a sad but true fact. I will be the first to say that the freedoms we enjoy make us lazy. As a whole most people forget because they deem it unimportant or useless information. Sometimes only made popular by game shows American History is still made available and taught to everyone. Wether they remember it or not is completely dependent on the person. Great point though and thanks for bringing it up because I think it is appauling, not saying I know it all but I have studied it a great deal and know more than my fair share. But only because I went above and beyond what was available in schools
Funwagon,
I agree with you 100%. the govenrment should be there and is there for the purpose of serving the interests of the masses. what i don't see is the imminent danger presented by iraq. since the gulf war, he has not done anything in the region to destablize it. nor has he used his wmd on his people. if there were instances where his own people were attacked by these wmd's, then we would have heard about it. if the united states were to come to the table with the argument of saddam attacking the kurds in the north, then i come to the table with the argument of america illegally detaining naturalized people of middle eastern descent solely on the basis of their origin. the only way the united states is getting away with it is because of new laws passed post 9-11 which allows for sweeping powers of the government to hold people without reason under the guise of national security by calling them "enemy combatants." the parallels between iranians and saudis being held indefinitely and those japanese people who were interned during world war II cannot and should not be overlooked.
interestingly, the deficit that bush has accrued under his leadership in the past three years is astronomical. it is the most deficit under any president within the last 30 years. i think this is the more pressing issue and the government, who is here to serve the people, should be doing more to tackle the sluggish economy. instead of jumpstarting the economy, bush has elected to go to war at the estimated cost of 5 billion dollars a month. this, i think, is ridiculous especially when americans are having a hard time finding a job to keep the house they bought as part of the american dream they thought they had. you can't go solve the world's problems if you can't solve the ones you have at home.
I agree with you 100%. the govenrment should be there and is there for the purpose of serving the interests of the masses. what i don't see is the imminent danger presented by iraq. since the gulf war, he has not done anything in the region to destablize it. nor has he used his wmd on his people. if there were instances where his own people were attacked by these wmd's, then we would have heard about it. if the united states were to come to the table with the argument of saddam attacking the kurds in the north, then i come to the table with the argument of america illegally detaining naturalized people of middle eastern descent solely on the basis of their origin. the only way the united states is getting away with it is because of new laws passed post 9-11 which allows for sweeping powers of the government to hold people without reason under the guise of national security by calling them "enemy combatants." the parallels between iranians and saudis being held indefinitely and those japanese people who were interned during world war II cannot and should not be overlooked.
interestingly, the deficit that bush has accrued under his leadership in the past three years is astronomical. it is the most deficit under any president within the last 30 years. i think this is the more pressing issue and the government, who is here to serve the people, should be doing more to tackle the sluggish economy. instead of jumpstarting the economy, bush has elected to go to war at the estimated cost of 5 billion dollars a month. this, i think, is ridiculous especially when americans are having a hard time finding a job to keep the house they bought as part of the american dream they thought they had. you can't go solve the world's problems if you can't solve the ones you have at home.
deepcover6
Member
Apparently you are more in a mood to argue and insult then to discuss 'I'll get off of your mom for five minutes and settle this like men" (very uncalled for...and childish)....a typical symptom of people who have one mind set...and only know the art of I am always right!!!
"Man listen to yourself talk. If you have reasons or opinions then list them. But if you don't back it up then expect to get it chopped off at the wrist just like in Iraq."
Maybe if you paid attention...to what was said in the link you would not fall flat on your face by making such a pointless comment. "get it chopped off at the wrist just like in Iraq."
(oh yeh this is not laced with hatred and bigotry)
'If you don't know what freedom is then you have some serious issues. I have traveled all over the world. Not because of my economic standing but because I sought out the opportunity and had a desire to see the world.' <<yeh right!!!
What has this got to do with the discussion. Which was about WAR!...U need to enlist they need your kind of ferver.
"The United States is vastly different from anything I have encountered anywhere in the world. Often times it is too easily taken for granted that just being able to walk out of our homes is a freedom. And the ability to have homes is another."
Hunh
what exactly do you mean by that ...people get shot when they walk outside their house....hmmm You mean Palestine...and their homes get bulldozed....yeh ur right...u have seen the world with unbiased eyes.
"I am not questioning your religion or your faith but I am questioning if you are an american.(Whatever that means??) From the way you talk it doesn't sound like you are.(Okk...U got some kind of gauge for how american I am?)
"i know plenty of americans that aren't like me and weren't born here and such but they all understand what freedoms the United states offers. As a matter of fact that is why most of them are here."
So most of the emmigrants are refugees??...maybe the case in the late eighteen hundreds after the gold rush....(Do not equate Bosnian refugees etc. as the major migrants) if we look at recent stats, education and economic development has been the main drive...not much different then people who came here for the gold.
"I mean we are taught about america from day one in school. Try and realize this as well. America has come farther in the last 100 years than other countries have in the last 1000." I see ...nationalism is instilled early..what else is new...?? Like they taught you all of history..in america right...they told you about the contributions of black people and the contributions of other people of different nations that helped make america what it is today.
"Btw i am just debating the facts here and backing up my opinions and what I say with them." It always seems like that to u doesn't it.
"Man listen to yourself talk. If you have reasons or opinions then list them. But if you don't back it up then expect to get it chopped off at the wrist just like in Iraq."
Maybe if you paid attention...to what was said in the link you would not fall flat on your face by making such a pointless comment. "get it chopped off at the wrist just like in Iraq."
(oh yeh this is not laced with hatred and bigotry)
'If you don't know what freedom is then you have some serious issues. I have traveled all over the world. Not because of my economic standing but because I sought out the opportunity and had a desire to see the world.' <<yeh right!!!
What has this got to do with the discussion. Which was about WAR!...U need to enlist they need your kind of ferver.
"The United States is vastly different from anything I have encountered anywhere in the world. Often times it is too easily taken for granted that just being able to walk out of our homes is a freedom. And the ability to have homes is another."
Hunh
what exactly do you mean by that ...people get shot when they walk outside their house....hmmm You mean Palestine...and their homes get bulldozed....yeh ur right...u have seen the world with unbiased eyes."I am not questioning your religion or your faith but I am questioning if you are an american.(Whatever that means??) From the way you talk it doesn't sound like you are.(Okk...U got some kind of gauge for how american I am?)
"i know plenty of americans that aren't like me and weren't born here and such but they all understand what freedoms the United states offers. As a matter of fact that is why most of them are here."
So most of the emmigrants are refugees??...maybe the case in the late eighteen hundreds after the gold rush....(Do not equate Bosnian refugees etc. as the major migrants) if we look at recent stats, education and economic development has been the main drive...not much different then people who came here for the gold.
"I mean we are taught about america from day one in school. Try and realize this as well. America has come farther in the last 100 years than other countries have in the last 1000." I see ...nationalism is instilled early..what else is new...?? Like they taught you all of history..in america right...they told you about the contributions of black people and the contributions of other people of different nations that helped make america what it is today.
"Btw i am just debating the facts here and backing up my opinions and what I say with them." It always seems like that to u doesn't it.
here's a link to the graphic showing the deficits of past presidents. you'll notice a very interesting coincidence!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030204/161/370et.html&e=14&ncid=996
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030204/161/370et.html&e=14&ncid=996
- :
- Black tinted '02 P5
WAR!
BAsically this is how i see it...
People are afraid, i am as well. Sun Tzu wrote down about a thousand years ago that when you back an enemy into a corner they are more dangerous then out on the battle field. Look at Saddam, he is more dangerous now then he ever was. what is a guy going to do when there are sanctions on him and he has nowhere to turn? he IS making chemical and biological weapons, and has been doing a good job of hiding them. will he use them? probably. what he is mostly doing is producing them to sell them. thats where the money is. he knows he cant fight a dead on battle with the US, so he sells his weapons to someone who can, i.e terrorists. THAT is where he is dangerous, and he needs to be stopped, plain and simple. As far as oil is concerned not many people know that russia has more oil in siberia then any other mid eastern country. and our politicians WONT let gas prices go up because they pay for the same gas as well.
Yes America is very business oriented, but is that necessarily a bad thing? the way a company works and conducts themselves is almost the same as how a country does. except the country has its own military. but the basic line is the same. we live in a global society and one country's actions will affect another. basic economics. our society says we need to work to earn money so we can live. how can we earn money when we are scared of war? there are some leaders who still believe in conquest. why be imperialistic when you can import export goods to another country and trade? thats why we dont NEED war anymore. since WW2 the world has been changing, i beleive for the better. we realize and understand each others potential and short commings, but we go on and learn. we have also made strong bonds so we can have a global society.
Why build weapons of mass destruction? for what purpose do they serve in TODAYS world? 50 years ago during the cold war, it was justified to the point that relations were not good, and we needed to feel secure, but today money seems to be that force sad or not, but thats another issue.
In retrospect, money does good and bad things to people, its just how you use it i guess.
i just hope if we do go to war, i hope we wont go in half assed. i hope we finish the job.
BAsically this is how i see it...
People are afraid, i am as well. Sun Tzu wrote down about a thousand years ago that when you back an enemy into a corner they are more dangerous then out on the battle field. Look at Saddam, he is more dangerous now then he ever was. what is a guy going to do when there are sanctions on him and he has nowhere to turn? he IS making chemical and biological weapons, and has been doing a good job of hiding them. will he use them? probably. what he is mostly doing is producing them to sell them. thats where the money is. he knows he cant fight a dead on battle with the US, so he sells his weapons to someone who can, i.e terrorists. THAT is where he is dangerous, and he needs to be stopped, plain and simple. As far as oil is concerned not many people know that russia has more oil in siberia then any other mid eastern country. and our politicians WONT let gas prices go up because they pay for the same gas as well.
Yes America is very business oriented, but is that necessarily a bad thing? the way a company works and conducts themselves is almost the same as how a country does. except the country has its own military. but the basic line is the same. we live in a global society and one country's actions will affect another. basic economics. our society says we need to work to earn money so we can live. how can we earn money when we are scared of war? there are some leaders who still believe in conquest. why be imperialistic when you can import export goods to another country and trade? thats why we dont NEED war anymore. since WW2 the world has been changing, i beleive for the better. we realize and understand each others potential and short commings, but we go on and learn. we have also made strong bonds so we can have a global society.
Why build weapons of mass destruction? for what purpose do they serve in TODAYS world? 50 years ago during the cold war, it was justified to the point that relations were not good, and we needed to feel secure, but today money seems to be that force sad or not, but thats another issue.
In retrospect, money does good and bad things to people, its just how you use it i guess.
i just hope if we do go to war, i hope we wont go in half assed. i hope we finish the job.
I think we can all agree that we will/do disagree, on some if not many points. No matter what point of view you take, there are always counterpoints. At this point, I can barely come to an agreement with myself on the issue. I'd hope that we can all agree that war is bad, no one wants it; but in some cases (this being one, hopefully one that can be more solidified in justification) is/may be necessary, in the best interest of the masses (not only the U.S.).
IMHO
IMHO
Deepcover I won't go any further trying to carry on an adult conversation with you as you are uncapable of doing so. Besides you are having enough fun putting words in my mouth that you could just have a conversation with yourself and save us from your babble. You have yet to state an opinion and then back it up as many others in here have. all that you have done is pick apart what I have said take it out of context and put your own little twist on it.
Pro5 on Speed hit the nail on the head. Today is more about money and power than having a whole field of nukes. It is more like a corporate takeover than a govt. intervention. You brought up some great points and backed them up. Thanks for contributing.
Scott42 thanks for you input and honesty. Actually you made me realize something that I hadn't stated yet. I DO NOT THINK WAR IS GOOD. I am just saying that I understand many of the reasons for it and beleive that it may somewhat give the economy a jump. This is my own opinion not the WS Journals summary.
Pro5 on Speed hit the nail on the head. Today is more about money and power than having a whole field of nukes. It is more like a corporate takeover than a govt. intervention. You brought up some great points and backed them up. Thanks for contributing.
Scott42 thanks for you input and honesty. Actually you made me realize something that I hadn't stated yet. I DO NOT THINK WAR IS GOOD. I am just saying that I understand many of the reasons for it and beleive that it may somewhat give the economy a jump. This is my own opinion not the WS Journals summary.
insert: arguing on forums = pointless
b/c there's too much time for counterpoints, nitpicking, and turning blind eye to others arguments
another relavant point: US isn't the place #1 place people choose to live (meaning they aren't doing everything right nor is it "the greatest"...)
b/c there's too much time for counterpoints, nitpicking, and turning blind eye to others arguments
another relavant point: US isn't the place #1 place people choose to live (meaning they aren't doing everything right nor is it "the greatest"...)
ok, so you guys say that a war with iraq will bring security to the world. i don't think this is the case. sure, there is a threat of him dispensing his wmd to terrorists, but they have a greater source of wmd from the old soviet block than they can get from saddam. another thing you guys have to keep in mind about our economic stability is that it rests on middle eastern stability. anything that will cause an upset to the fine balance that is the middle east now will cause oil prices to skyrocket. without saddam, iraq is without a leader. if we remove him, there will be a struggle for power, which will cause the region to become unstable, which will in turn affect the economic stability of the united states. plus, we are sending in troops that are ill-equipped to deal with biological agents. gulf syndrome among troops in the first gulf war is still an incurable and unknown epidemic. are we ready to send in more of your youngest, brightest, and most patriotic men and women to be subject to this risk? the negative affects of the war against iraq (saddam) far exceeds the comparably minimal threats he poses. but then again, that's just my opinion.
deepcover6
Member
I initially only posted an opinion that Funwagon couldn't stand...I think the proper etiquette is to either debate it or just let it be....rather then make it look like I said nothing
Well so far Scott and Tonka you seem the most reasonable to discuss with...It is true the Bush sr and now Bush jr are on a mission to take care of the Beast of Baghdad. Although he does not have the capacity to build one (Nuke)...Although America preaches peace it wages war....Wars are never fought for altruistic reasons they are ususally fought for hegemony for buisness. Protecting its control of the worlds oil is fundamental to US foreign policy. The US govt recent intervention in the Balkans, central Asia have to do with oil. Hameed Karzai the puppet president of Afghanistan installed by the US who is said to be a former employee..of Unocal the American-based oil company. The US paranoid patrol of the middle east is because it has 2/3rds of the worlds oil reserves..Then again oil does keep Americas engines purring sweetly, oil keeps the free market rolling. Who ever controls the worlds oil, controls the world market. So how do you control the worlds oil...Take a quote from the columnist of the NEW YORK TIMES Tomas Freedman "The US has to make it clear to Iraq and US allies, that America will use force without negotiation, hesitation or UN approval. The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist. McDonalds can't flourish without Mc Donald Douglas, and the hidden fist that keeps safe the silicon valleys technology to flourish is called the US Army, Navy, US Airforce and Marine core. Quite a succint accurate description of corportate globalization... Since sept 11 the hidden fist has had it's cover blown..America has been on the perfect war...the proper path of imperialism...
Well so far Scott and Tonka you seem the most reasonable to discuss with...It is true the Bush sr and now Bush jr are on a mission to take care of the Beast of Baghdad. Although he does not have the capacity to build one (Nuke)...Although America preaches peace it wages war....Wars are never fought for altruistic reasons they are ususally fought for hegemony for buisness. Protecting its control of the worlds oil is fundamental to US foreign policy. The US govt recent intervention in the Balkans, central Asia have to do with oil. Hameed Karzai the puppet president of Afghanistan installed by the US who is said to be a former employee..of Unocal the American-based oil company. The US paranoid patrol of the middle east is because it has 2/3rds of the worlds oil reserves..Then again oil does keep Americas engines purring sweetly, oil keeps the free market rolling. Who ever controls the worlds oil, controls the world market. So how do you control the worlds oil...Take a quote from the columnist of the NEW YORK TIMES Tomas Freedman "The US has to make it clear to Iraq and US allies, that America will use force without negotiation, hesitation or UN approval. The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist. McDonalds can't flourish without Mc Donald Douglas, and the hidden fist that keeps safe the silicon valleys technology to flourish is called the US Army, Navy, US Airforce and Marine core. Quite a succint accurate description of corportate globalization... Since sept 11 the hidden fist has had it's cover blown..America has been on the perfect war...the proper path of imperialism...
Hey, here's an off topic to this topic but still relevant (if that makes sense)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/871342.asp
stock up, be safe everyone.
I'm not debating anything here, as there are too many factors to debate, and too many sides to take. This is not a two sided debate; its more like 8 sided, with each side sharing and shunning similar points. End result; there is no winner no matter what happens (rather pessimistic, I know). The leaders have been chosen through whatever means each country has. All we can do in the short term is hope that something sparks in each of their respective heads and the most human friendly resolution is established and followed collectively, successfully, and completely.
In the long term, its up to the people (if they disagree with our leaders) to elect new leadership who do represent the 'true' will of the people. That's what democracies(sp?) are for. I personally voted for Gore, but Bush is the man in charge. Thus, I'll follow the voices of the people who supported him, and show my support even if I disagree personally on certain issues. His election was the voice of the American people...and I am one of them so in essence, I support whatever we do, even if I disagree. Anyone can play Monday Morning Quarterback (someone please kick me off of my soapbox...
I'm done, sorry, I rambled.
(usa) (canada) (2thumbs)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/871342.asp
stock up, be safe everyone.
I'm not debating anything here, as there are too many factors to debate, and too many sides to take. This is not a two sided debate; its more like 8 sided, with each side sharing and shunning similar points. End result; there is no winner no matter what happens (rather pessimistic, I know). The leaders have been chosen through whatever means each country has. All we can do in the short term is hope that something sparks in each of their respective heads and the most human friendly resolution is established and followed collectively, successfully, and completely.
In the long term, its up to the people (if they disagree with our leaders) to elect new leadership who do represent the 'true' will of the people. That's what democracies(sp?) are for. I personally voted for Gore, but Bush is the man in charge. Thus, I'll follow the voices of the people who supported him, and show my support even if I disagree personally on certain issues. His election was the voice of the American people...and I am one of them so in essence, I support whatever we do, even if I disagree. Anyone can play Monday Morning Quarterback (someone please kick me off of my soapbox...
I'm done, sorry, I rambled.(usa) (canada) (2thumbs)
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DooMer_MP3
Member
tonkabui said:
Thank you. I totally agree with that comment. Just because I don't really support THIS war does NOT mean I am not an American. I work, pay taxes and vote. I am American. And by being an American, I can think whatever the heck I want.
Chris
good thoughts from all kinds of people, from both sides of the fence.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/856672.asp?0cv=CB20
again, I couldn't tell you whether I think that war would be the only option or not. But, I do feel that some European countries (cough cough, France/Germany) are not supporting the people who have given support in the past... (those points are made in the comments)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/856672.asp?0cv=CB20
again, I couldn't tell you whether I think that war would be the only option or not. But, I do feel that some European countries (cough cough, France/Germany) are not supporting the people who have given support in the past... (those points are made in the comments)
That has been one of the best comments in those whole thread.
Deep has also made some intelligent points. The important thing to remeber here is to use the head. Dont be a sheep and follow the rest of the herd. Things they spoon feed you on the news are not always entirely accurate.....especially since the rest of the worlds information seems to be more reliable than the propaganda and scare tactics were getting here.
There are alot of monetary external forces affecting things here.
This is an awesome country no doubt, but we cannot let greed and the boosting our economy cloud things.
Sadam is a murdered and a bastard but, washington gladly gave him money and weapons to fight the Iranians. No there getting bit in the ass by giving money to that thug.
My opinion:They should go in there and kill the bastard Mutha Fugga. But not start a war and kill thousands of innocent people that have been oppressed by him. Because a war will not kill that roach, he will just run and hide.
DooMer_MP3
Member
Agreed spoolin,
I think everybody here could benefit (myself included) from reading/watching news from the BBC, to get some outside perspective.
Chris
I think everybody here could benefit (myself included) from reading/watching news from the BBC, to get some outside perspective.
Chris
syn_lube_nut
Member
Just before this post turns into argument over the evils and goods of the American economy/market type, go outside right now and look at your car and the cars of others. Ill wait here, no go.......
......back? Okay, what you see is a system that, for its faults, works very well and is designed to reward those who strive for success. See, when you went outside you noticed that your car was, in fact, different from all others around you-right? That's because our market system allows for that. Now, we could have a strict socialist system (like many in this country want) and all drive the exact same car! But instead, we are able to attain a lifestyle that suits us individually. It is our system that allows you to have the kind of car that you do, or any car for that matter.
......back? Okay, what you see is a system that, for its faults, works very well and is designed to reward those who strive for success. See, when you went outside you noticed that your car was, in fact, different from all others around you-right? That's because our market system allows for that. Now, we could have a strict socialist system (like many in this country want) and all drive the exact same car! But instead, we are able to attain a lifestyle that suits us individually. It is our system that allows you to have the kind of car that you do, or any car for that matter.
syn_lube_nut
Member
What does it mean to be American? So far I ve only heard the media definition and not the truth. And lastly, it wasnt until the 14th amendment that we even became really known amongst ourselves as "Americans". Before then, we were These United States of America. Ah, nevermind. This is just gonna start another mindless arguments that will be predicated upon hollywood history and not the real thing.
This is definetely NOT the 1st the U.S. gov't has done something like this, but its the first in a while thats been valid. And to answer why the U.S. gov't didnt do soemthing before 11 Sept., good point! Why didnt Clinton take care of UBL back in 1998 when he had the chance?
This is definetely NOT the 1st the U.S. gov't has done something like this, but its the first in a while thats been valid. And to answer why the U.S. gov't didnt do soemthing before 11 Sept., good point! Why didnt Clinton take care of UBL back in 1998 when he had the chance?
PhyschoMP3
Member
I want to kill sadam but i dont think we should go to war without NATO OR THe UN's support. Yes, We do make up both of those but still if we do go to war I dont want my taxes to go to rebuild Iraq. AND I personally think we should nuke the entire middle east. SO BASICALLY... GO to war if we can kill sadam and dump the dumb country on to the UN to rebuild. Or dont go to war and have a sniper kill him.
