Trying to hit 250whp, help?

[magnumP5]

^^^ If that were true then I must have spent a lot of money on bulls*** performance mods. At its height, my P5 with a MSP setup made 215 hp and 220 ft-lbs to the ground and I know I spent MUCH more than $1100. Go ahead and check the hyperlink in my sig if you want to know what all I did.

It'd be a lot nicer to see people who have actually MADE 220, 250, 300 hp to the wheels comment more...

 

[squire0311]

aslong as i comewith in 5-10hp of 250 ill be happy. and i have 2300 into her so far and another 1200-1300 going into her. no 1 said it was going to be cheap. and i see where u have more then 1100 magnum but thats because you didnt come turbocharged in the 1st place.

 

[magnumP5]

^^^ Even ignoring the cost of initially turbocharging it I easily exceeded $1100. Just quickly remembering some prices I spent $500 on the FMIC (new), $800 on the exhaust manifold (used), $200 on the SS AFC (used), $250 on the exhaust (used and arguably the biggest bottleneck to making more power), $500 on the upgraded turbo, $180 on a 626 IM (used) and the list goes on. I had just about every bolt on available except lightweight pullies, a 3" exhaust and 505zoom's IM (was on the list before I sold it). I had also tuned the AFC to a perfect 11.5:1 at 10 psi.

The point is making more than 225-230 whp on these cars takes a lot of work AND money. The stock block record goes to 505zoom and his 277 whp on a GT28RS and you should see his mod list, not to mention the incredible tune that let him accomplish those numbers.

But that's okay, you guys don't have to listen to those of us who built up these cars in the past.

EDIT: VVV This guys knows what it takes

 

[Signature Sound]

Reading this entire thread brought me to one conclusion: anyone trying to learn should go somewhere else.

As for the OP, heres my input: Shane and DanDan are about as spot on as you can get. You will need to control MANY of the vehicles prameters if you TRULY want to have a good tune. That is what will get you where you need to be. Haltech is the way to go because they have developed many ECU's for OEM's and race cars AND they know the complexity of tuning a motor. They keep this in mind when developing their products and thats how so many are able to achieve their output goals with the Haltech products. Timing is very important to control, and obviously fuel is too, but keep in mind that if you dont also tune the compensation maps for warmer or colder air and coolant temps, you WILL blow your motor. If you dont tune the Latency for your injectors or compensate for voltage drops when turning on your headlights and so on... they can all quickly add up to being a factor for blowing the motor. The Haltech will do all of that WITH A GOOD TUNE!!!

Like Shane said, having a knock light is a good idea. Having a J&S is a GREAT idea. Someone else mentioned the DocB oil system, Great idea. But for all of those that mentioned the standalone: BEST idea. I have blown my motor 3 times from a bad tune. I woud have to say, if you dont want to spend a lot of money, START there. Theres no way I have spent even close to $12000 for the 400hp I have. The only thing holding me back from 500+ is my transmission is going on 105k miles and I needed to get home from the dyno.

The best people to ask are the ones that have been there. DanDan mentioned having to do it over again after a mistake with the previous ECU set up. Theres nothing more frustrating than going cheap on something, just to have to pay for the repairs PLUS what you should have got in the first place. I decided to skip the connecting rods and dyno tuning on my second build. The $700 I saved cost me a couple grand when I had to buy a new block, pistons, bearings, oil pan and a bunch of other misc. stuff from the broken rod punching holes thru everything.

 

[thecrash91]

you could get that much hp if you have no concern for doing it reliably, just buy a big ass turbo and boost controller no ems XD

 

[yudkib]

...Just quickly remembering some prices I spent $500 on the FMIC (new) i said spend 200
$800 on the exhaust manifold (used) not needed
$200 on the SS AFC (used) good price
$250 on the exhaust (used and arguably the biggest bottleneck to making more power) spot on
$500 on the upgraded turbo, not needed
$180 on a 626 IM (used) eh, got it for the right price
The point is making more than 225-230 whp on these cars takes a lot of work AND money. definitely true

But that's okay, you guys don't have to listen to those of us who built up these cars in the past.

FYI - i was planning to go for the stock block record. all i really had left was an intake mani and MSII running standalone (maybe injectors or some other odds and ends). i had my ideas on what made rich's build work and have done plenty of reading on other peoples.

id like to get rich in here to get his comments. or the dozens of people who made 250whp. the fact is - until this thread came up, no one ever, EVER recommended standalone for a mild build like this.
the AEM unit, or MSII in piggyback is perfect. both do timing and fuel and are good units with enough support. you wont chase 275whp on them (you need MPI, MSII, or standalone to really chase that) but you should be fine for 230-240whp.

but thats ok, you dont have to listen to those of us who want to squeeze a dime and spend less than four grand to make 75hp over stock.
another FYI - if you want to make 250whp and dont want to change pistons, buy a different ******* car.

 

[squire0311]

for 1 just because you think you cant doesnt mean some 1 ELSE cant. and unless you try everything dont tell me or any 1 else it cant be done! and like i said no 2 car's are the same off the production line. if you have'nt tuned or built cars for a living dont try and tell some 1 who has what will and will not work. all im hearing from some 1 is whine, whine, whine ,b**** ,b**** ,b**** ive got sand in my vagina. dont knock it till you rock it! LAwyered

 

[yudkib]

for 1 just because you think you cant doesnt mean some 1 ELSE cant.

do you even read?

FYI - i was planning to go for the stock block record. all i really had left was an intake mani and MSII running standalone (maybe injectors or some other odds and ends). i had my ideas on what made rich's build work and have done plenty of reading on other peoples.

 

[magnumP5]

for 1 just because you think you cant doesnt mean some 1 ELSE cant. and unless you try everything dont tell me or any 1 else it cant be done! and like i said no 2 car's are the same off the production line. if you have'nt tuned or built cars for a living dont try and tell some 1 who has what will and will not work. all im hearing from some 1 is whine, whine, whine ,b**** ,b**** ,b**** ive got sand in my vagina. dont knock it till you rock it! LAwyered

LOL this just shows how little you know. I don't need to have tuned/built cars for a living - I tuned and built THIS car and that's all that matters. People have been working with these cars since 2003 so no matter what YOU think, people HAVE done it before. We know what works, and what doesn't work; it's you're choice to heed our advice or completely ignore it. However, based on your comments, I eagerly await your "Zoom Zoom Boom" thread and subsequent bitching.

@yudkib

While you can make 250 whp on the stock turbo I highly advise against it. As someone else pointed out you will have it operating out of its recommended range. A GT28RS at 12-14 psi should easily land you there (with supporting modifications, obviously). Regarding Rich's tune, I don't know all the specifics but I do know at one point he was pulling a lot of timing in the mid-RPM range. Just some food for though.

 

[Signature Sound]

you dont pull that much timing mid range. its only a couple degrees while the turbo catches up. theres really not much to argue about, so lets keep it a discussion for the guy trying to just get advice. theres no doubt some people have had some head aches with their FS motor. I have had my share too. It just comes down to knowing what you are doing, which includes properly tuning the car. reliability is always a good thing, and learning from others will help you know just what those inefficiencies are. this thread obviously isnt going to help you much since it has turned into a debate instead of a source of information. I advise you to PM the members that have hit the mark you are trying for. That way the confusion of reading thru all this doesnt turn into a huge blur of poop.

hitting the 250 mark will be easy. it may take you some time and maybe a little cash, but the feeling is priceless knowing its yours and you did it. the sense of accomplishment is friggin awsome. go to the dyno and see where you are at when its ready to go. bring an extra set or two of spark plugs, maybe one of them a step colder just to be sure. see what you can get out of it and where the improvement needs to be made. if its falling off at the top end, maybe a bigger turbo is needed, or basically more flow so a freer flowing exhaust, intake etc... hopefully you will have the J&S to be safe while doing this. as time goes on, start taking care of the things for reliability. just dont drive like an ass and drop the clutch at every stop light. I have 105k miles on my stock tranny. it can be done!

 

[yudkib]

well put.
250 is an admirable goal, but you will definitely need timing control for it, and the knowledge that people have had things break at that power level before. J&S, while expensive, is a good idea. knocklight is an absolute must.

 

[Spiced MSP]

Lots of great info here, hell I'm even learning a few key points for when it's my turn to build

 

[squire0311]

greatminds think for them selves and dont follow the same path as others. too truely understand the limits you need to push them for your self and take advise as a grain of salt. and builting and tuning cars for a living you learn to lisen to the engine while you tune it. she will tell you when she's had enough.

 

[yudkib]

@yudkib

While you can make 250 whp on the stock turbo I highly advise against it. As someone else pointed out you will have it operating out of its recommended range.

haha - i just saw this post, id be happy to show you where someone first pointed it out

for 250whp, you need a 2.5" exhaust....... and a wicked tune. a larger turbo would help considerably, as the GT25 is out of its efficiency range at redline above OEM boost. thats not to say its a bad turbo, its adequate, but youll make more whp on a bigger turbo at the same boost - plain and simple.

i should clarify though: to get 250whp on the stock motor, a larger turbo doesnt just help, its necessary. you can probably squeeze about 225whp on the stock motor + stock turbo.

 

[magnumP5]

^^^ Gotcha, I was just replying to your comment where you said the upgraded turbo wasn't necessary. It's been a while since I've scrutinized a GT2554R turbo compressor map, but I do believe 16 psi is right about at the limit. I really should go back and find all my "x turbo needed for y horsepower" calculations. I'm not very familiar with T3 and up turbos but I seem to recall a GT28RS being sufficient for 250 whp while at least a GT2871R was required for 300 whp (for this particular application).

 

[yudkib]

well - the upgraded turbo probably wasnt required for 225, but it definitely is for 250. how many psi did you run on it? im gonna guess... 11?
and if you look at the flow maps, the gt2554rs plots past the 60% line at 8psi and above. it plots below 50% above 12psi, if i remember.

gt28rs is good for about 300-325whp if my memory serves me, i didnt really look at gt3071r...
t3 50 trim is about the same as the OEM turbo, t3 super 60 is similar to the 28rs (later spool though), then once you get into t3/t04e territory you really have to scrutinize the maps for your individual application.

 

[jeffmsp]

tekkie dyno verified 255whp at ~10psi on stock turbo T25R with built motor and good EMS with good quality FMIC and exhaust on more than 1 occasion from what I recall.

other have cracked 250whp as well. there are also some nissan 240sx guys making over 250whp on nonBB T25..

if you do the math with blkzoomzooms QM runs put him around the same level with the stock turbo I believe.

14psi with a GREAT setup = > 250whp

proof is in the timeslips and dyno graphs. search old threads.(stash)

 

[jeffmsp]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-118457.html

 

[jeffmsp]

its all about the whole package for big HP

CAI to T25R-good hot pipe-Quality FMIC or water IC-good cold pipe- aftermarket or custom IM -nonstock cams(anything seems better than stock that I have seen)- tubular exhaust manifold- proper downpipe as big as you can find - 3" exhaust

add good gas, a good ems and good tuning with wb02.

anyone with all the parts I have mentioned is making 250whp or more on stock turbo or they arent running high enough boost lol

now how long the stock block lasts is another topic, but dont think the T25R cant huff 250whp

 

[yudkib]

255whp at 10psi on the stock turbo? im reading this thread, and i dont buy that for a second.
people with 3" exhausts, turbolifes, and SSFTC's dyno at like 205whp on 10psi with a dyno tune. an exhaust mani and a better tune does not equate to 50whp. sorry, but no.