Suing the gun makers......again!

[nckid]

I can see your point on automatic weapons, but do you have any idea the price (in this area: $5k-$20k) on a legal automatic gun. Not to mention the level of gun permits and paperwork that have to be filled out in order to purchase an automatic weapon. As far as semi-auto. most guns made today are semi. Any pistol (not revolver) that I've shot has been semi-auto. That's not to say they're not out there, but all semi-auto means is that the gun will shoot as fast as you pull the trigger.

 

[shinzen]

So dig, after some of your last posts, I cannot believe your stance on this issue. I am currently and have been for years a gun owner. The reason for the 2nd amendment is pretty clear to anyone who has studied history and the basis for that amendment- to protect ourselves from government repression- that is how our country was founded by rebelling against England. Now you want to limit our abilities to defend ourselves by only allowing us to own single shot weapons? This is how tyranny starts. Another quick peek at history, gun registration is the way that nazi germany got it's start- first register the weapons, then take away the weapons, then you have a populace with no ability to fight back- doesn't sound like fun to me. Now, we do have the highest (for civilized nations) gun deaths, but I will submit to you that other forms of death- bats, knives, simple beatings are on the rise in one of the supposedly safest and most surveilled countries in the world- England. The youth gangs over there are randomly choosing and mauling victims, to the point of permanent damage- how is that any better? You seemed to be one of the strongest advocates for freedom before- I am a bit disappointed.

 

[Mad Ryan]

According to FBI crime stats, the firearm responsible for more fatalities than all others combined is the .22 caliber rimfire (longrifle, shorts, mags) which is not a military caliber. It is however a popular caliber with companies such as Jennings and Lorcin which are both producers of bad, cheap handguns, and on the whole, .22's are relatively cheap, and the Ammunition is easy to get.

A very small percentage (Less than a tenth of a percent) of murders are commited with Military Style "Assult Weapons" which are very common in America. Also, a very small percentage (I can't remember the exact number) of murders are commited with larger caliber handguns. (.25, .32, .380, .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45, etc.)

All this information is available in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports.

 

[nckid]

One more thought before I head off to work, if someone does gather the guts to break into my house and steal my belongings or hurt my family, teenager or not, they had better be ready to take at least one in the leg and if they so choose to continue with their actions: "Officer, I was aiming for the arm, I guess my gun slipped a little and I accidentily hit him in the face."

 

[Mad Ryan]

BTW... Since the NICS system went into effect, waiting periods have been abolished (I'm not sure about state to state but there are no federal waiting periods) Now they run a background check, takes about 10 minutes and you leave with your new gun.

Now... about automatic weapons...

To purchase an automatic weapon you must have a class III permit issued by the by the BATF after a lengthly application process. You also have to pay a tax on every class III weapon you own (I believe it's about $300 every year) You also must purchase your new fully automatic weapon from a Class III dealer which can be hard to find. And after all that you are going to pay alot, anywhere from $2-3,000 for an M-16 to $5,000 for an MP-5 or up to $15,000-$25,000 for heavy machine guns and that's not even getting into ammo for the thing.

 

[DigitalDuality]

shinz-- the govt doesn't need violent tyranny anymore.. we willingly let their propoganda control our minds.

 

[70]

you have a link to back that up?

Do you have one to back your arguement? You posted the arguement first...


There are a number of problems with the arguement of crime in suburbia. First, define "suburbia."

Then, you have you wonder how the study that you post the stats from age a teen.

Most stats regarding "teens" actually take people aged up to 21, sometimes higher.

Most gun control proponates use that tactic to make gun crimes amongst "teens" show that gun violence is on the rise amongst "teens." When, in actuality a 21 year-old is no where near teenaged.

 

[shinzen]

shinz-- the govt doesn't need violent tyranny anymore.. we willingly let their propoganda control our minds.

So those of us who are fighting against the propaganda should lay down our arms, submit to the lines we are fed and become citizens the way we are told? No thanks!

 

[shinzen]

Another point being, if you are going to point out the difference between countries and firearm murder rates, you would need to go no further than this- murder rates in japan and in england are much lower than the U.S., therefore, if you eliminate firearms from the U.S then the statistics should be comparable, correct? All you need to do to reach this would be remove the firearm deaths from the statistics to achieve similar rates. Wrong. Even if you subtract the firearm deaths per 100k people, we still have 2 1/2 times the rate in wales, as an example. Therefore we cannot hypothesis that elimination of guns will reduce our crime to the level of other countries. Now that is also assuming a 59% drop in murders commited by people and that they would not kill anybody any other way. Our culture is so radically different, and as was already pointed out we have so many different groups here, this would not be the way to solve anything.

 

[DigitalDuality]

Can someone tell me what makes America so different that it makes our violence rates increase?? Ya know..other than being arrogant uncultured assholes who can't find Iraq on a map. (generalization)

Canada and many Europeans countries are quite diverse religously, politically, racially..

 

[70]

Can someone tell me what makes America so different that it makes our violence rates increase?? Ya know..other than being arrogant uncultured assholes who can't find Iraq on a map. (generalization)

Canada and many Europeans countries are quite diverse religously, politically, racially..

I pointed it out already, we are more diverse in every aspect than any European country.

There are more people in the entire world that want to come the US than want to go to any other country.

What I mean is, if you add up all the people who want to go to a country other than the one they were born in and not the US, you would get a number that is less than the number of people who want to come to the US alone.

 

[loj68]

Can someone tell me what makes America so different that it makes our violence rates increase?? Ya know..other than being arrogant uncultured assholes who can't find Iraq on a map. (generalization)

Canada and many Europeans countries are quite diverse religously, politically, racially..

sounds like you've got anti-america issues there bro. I think you need to look at the other side of the coin......that people in these other countries would kill their first born to be able to live in the USA......they die by the thousands each year to get here from other countries. And we have more immigrants here from Canada than any other country........so we must not be all bad. Your statement and reference to other countries is just your opinion.....and a pretty s*** one IMHO.........move to Canada for a winter and see how much you like it.......

 

[DigitalDuality]

actually... due to actions of the current admin, and issues that have been overcome in Canada recently.. I think Canada has more of a sense of freedom than America. Japan doesn't go through the measures America does to censor to "obscene" either, and yet "freedom of speech" isn't something their governement is founded on in the way america is. I could go on and on.

So i take it, you're acrediting our diversity to our violence problem and that you don't see it as a positive thing? Surely you don't have the ignorant Michael Savage point of view "Diversity is Perversity"?

(and um by the way i love america, i just disagree with a shitload of issues and the avg norm of its culture and all the subcultures within, including the ones i could be classified as... If you were to move my ass to another country, i'd find a long list of pros/cons for that place too.. As a matter of patriotism? I don't align myself with nationalism, racial gender or preference causes, I don't align myself with any organization as a whole and i never will. **** patriot, racial, gender and religious pride.. **** gay pride.. Be proud of what you do, not what you are. How can you take pride in merely being born white, american, black, female.. You didn't do anything.. you just ARE. )

Look I offered a theory to america's violence problem... mainword being, which i haven't deviated from is "theory".. not some concrete unchangable opinion. You've all made great points. I would happily give up the so called "right" so own a particular type of weapon, if our violence rates decreased. I'm open to new paths of change if it can bring about good..none of my so called beliefs are solidified and hope they never will be, there's always room for improvement. I'm not holding on to traditions and fighting feverantly for the cause of stripping gun owners their rights.. I won't succumb to that like some whiney liberal who's just as blind as a gun owner who can't deviate from their personal ideals for 5 seconds.

All i hear is "don't take my guns away.. i sure do love my guns".. and stupid ass people who think "guns are the devil, we need to rid the world of guns.." blah blah blah. I'm just exploring ideas to deter and prevent the horrid use of these weapons..and offering a debate to make me think, and to make others think.. not just defend strictly your point of view.

To take this a new direction, do you find "the ban on guns" equally as absurd as communities such as Kennesaw, GA and Virgin, Utah that require heads of households to own a firearm? Surely you agree that not everyone should have the ability to own a gun, nor be forced to.

 

[loj68]

To take this a new direction, do you find "the ban on guns" equally as absurd as communities such as Kennesaw, GA and Virgin, Utah that require heads of households to own a firearm? Surely you agree that not everyone should have the ability to own a gun, nor be forced to.

Well the town doesn't have a police force which is why the city council decided to enact this. In the absence of a viable armed authority I think it's prudent that the citizens be required to defend themselves. If there are citizens who don't agree then they should vote out those council members next year and repeal that law. I for one think it's a little overboard myself to "require" everyone to own a gun........if for nothing more than the expense that one incurs when purchasing a gun.......and also because that kind of law is a little too dictatorial for my taste.....but I bet thats one safe ass town

 

[70]

I think the "violence issue" along with most of the other crime issues are present because of a lack of willingness of the tax payers to truly punish those who commit violent crimes.

The diversity of the US simply adds to this problem because various cultures don't view "US laws" as crimes when broken.

 

[Mad Ryan]

I can tell you a big part of the crime problem is that over the last 30 years or so we've gone from a nation of people who expect our citizens to be accountable for their own actions to a bunch of flaming pinko's that want to rehab everyone, rather than punish them. There isn't any personal accountability in our schools anymore. When kids do poorly on standardized tests it's passed off as socio-economic/racial biased testing, or poor schools. Never do you hear anybody say MAYBE THE ******* KID IS LAZY!

I say that the crime problem in America has nothing to do with a lack of laws, or the presence of guns. It has everything to do with a whole generation of drug-baby assholes that have been brought up to believe that they're victims of society in some way and that if they rob someone they're only getting what's actually owed to them.

If you want to get rid of violent crime you start making violent crimes commited with firearms automatic capital crimes. Armed robbery... Dead! Shoot someone for their sneakers... Dead!

Some have made examples of Japan. I used to live there. They have a much more effective legal system there because they don't have the same checks and balances we have to make it fair for the criminal. If we want our system to work that well we would have to give up a significant chunk of our rights.

 

[kc5zom]

According to FBI crime stats, the firearm responsible for more fatalities than all others combined is the .22 caliber rimfire (longrifle, shorts, mags) which is not a military caliber. It is however a popular caliber with companies such as Jennings and Lorcin which are both producers of bad, cheap handguns, and on the whole, .22's are relatively cheap, and the Ammunition is easy to get.

A very small percentage (Less than a tenth of a percent) of murders are commited with Military Style "Assult Weapons" which are very common in America. Also, a very small percentage (I can't remember the exact number) of murders are commited with larger caliber handguns. (.25, .32, .380, .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45, etc.)

All this information is available in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports.

I would like you to point out where you got that from. I didn't see it in the 2002 reports, but you should post a link if you have seen it. What I DID see is that in 2002 71.1% of homicides (where weapon type was reported) involved a firearm. Of those 71.1% over 76% involved handguns, 5% rifles, and 5% shotguns. I seriously doubt there are that many .22 caliber handguns doing all of that crime, especially with the low damage of impact from a small non-hollow point bullet travelling at such a high rate of speed.

Last year only 225 people were cleared with justifiable homicide out of 14,054 homicides (edit: actually I think you have to add the 225 to the 14,054 so 14,279). You are also about 3 times more likely to die in an argument or other non-felony altercation than you are during a felony act. Of those felony acts you are far more likely to die during a robbery than a burglary (a whopping 96 incidents last year). But hey, if everyone were carrying a gun, at least we could settle those arguments faster when we were on our way to rob someone. I just pulled every single number out of there. Go have a look:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

 

[pingdum]

If you want to get rid of violent crime you start making violent crimes commited with firearms automatic capital crimes. Armed robbery... Dead! Shoot someone for their sneakers... Dead!

The easiest way to eliminate crime is just get rid of The Bill of Rights. Let's go for that.

There are more people in the entire world that want to come the US than want to go to any other country.

What I mean is, if you add up all the people who want to go to a country other than the one they were born in and not the US, you would get a number that is less than the number of people who want to come to the US alone.

that people in these other countries would kill their first born to be able to live in the USA......they die by the thousands each year to get here from other countries. And we have more immigrants here from Canada than any other country

People need to get off their high horse on this issue. Although many people around the world are dying, literally, to get into this country, they represent a small population of their home countries. I would bet there are as many people there who hate the U.S. as want to come here. And saying we are so much better than Ethiopia or Slovenia is not really saying much. Countries like Germany, Canada and England are just as flooded with immigrants as we are. People are just trying to get anywhere than their own bad homeland.

Can someone tell me what makes America so different that it makes our violence rates increase?? Ya know..other than being arrogant uncultured assholes who can't find Iraq on a map. (generalization)

My guess it's the over emphasis on individuality and self-worth. When you believe that you are the most important person in the universe then anyone else's opinions, possessions, or even life becomes non-worthy to you.

On a little side note. Has anyone else noticed that the Christians on this board seem to have the most violent solutions to things?(hmm)

 

[shinzen]

I will agree with ryan on one point, we need accountability in this country. Period. Take some personal responsibility for yourselves and realize that you are the reason your kids are failing- take an interest in their lives and help them suceed.
The reason, pingdum that we are the place that has more people immigrating to our country, and we are the most hated in the world, is that we are the most successful. We have our bill of rights, we have the constitution and I believe wholeheartedly in those.
We have a large disparity between the lower and middle class in this country, which is one of the reasons that we have such a disparity in crime rates. Our country has more middle class than anywhere else(just an opinion, no figures this time). In most other countries you have either rich or poor, and the rich are more separated from the poor. Here, we have middle class and poor working side by side which creates jealousy between the lower two classes- the poor want to be middle class- because that's what they see every day. The middle class has health care, 401k's, a house- and it's something you have to live with seeing on a daily basis. In other countries, the difference in monies is different(once again, an opinion) You have more extremes between poor and rich, and the rich are not seen as often as the middle class are here- jealousy is everthing- it creates feelings of entitlement and inferiority which leads to violence- something to think about.

 

[DigitalDuality]

The lower and upper classes despise each other in every society. The middle class always rushes for the dream of being upper class while sympathizing with the lower class. If/when revolution comes about, normally its the middle and lower class fighting together. The lower class stays lower class, the middle class is devided in what becomes the higher class and what remains as the middle class... and so the cycle begins agian..

This is apparent in almost every society. Its not unique to america.