Protege5: Harder, not Smarter!
- Thread starter Tamn
- Start date
Haha. With a multi-million dollar budget, I'm sure they could. But if you were using a multi-million dollar budget on a Protege, I may have to question your sanity sir...
Those are 15" rims?
I drool over it every day I walk past it.
I got pics scattered throughout of various stages of the interior/exterior.Just about ready to start pulling the engine at this point (after finals week ends) but slightly after that I start a new job doing 70+ hour weeks for the next few weeks-months. (refinery) So we'll see how much time I actually get.
- :
- aggressive auto culture
You goto WWU?
Just finished my transfer degree at Whatcom Community this quarter. Applying to WWU next.
Well after our driest summer (ever?) its pretty much rained every single day since it ended. Leaving me with lots more time to research bizarre ways of weight savings. I have searched high and low on hundreds of forums/engineering pages/etc for new and innovative ways to save weight. I sorted my bookmarks the other day and had over 4300 pages devoted to my car research. Yes, I'm bored, I haven't had anything to post in here in awhile so this is just a collection of my current thoughts and idea's of what next.
List of things I want to try: Bamboo poles as construction materials, bamboo is an amazing material, it is one of the strongest materials on earth (for its weight) is has no grain lines, so it has no weak points like wood, it is tubular already, so in its natural state it is very strong because of its shape. Bamboo can be heat treated to become stronger than hard steel and can last almost indefinitely because it doesn't rust or break down.
I wont even go into how its better for the environment, because in a word, its amazing. It grows extremely fast and when a bamboo forest is cut down, the roots stay alive and regrow very rapidly. I first started looking at bamboo as a material when I read some fascinating articles about it being used as a major bridge building material in Asia. It is extremely flexible because it supports its own weight while being hollow and growing up to 90 feet tall.
The downside of bamboo...there is no universal strength ratings, so its still somewhat of a mystery to me as to what I would need and how much. The many different species can be heat treated to increase strength, but again, there is no collective list of what species are the strongest.
I've decided I will run a fuel cell, the new cells are built from fiberglass and plastic and weigh in at a fraction of conventional tanks. Plus, I have some serious weight problems with my rear end now. The drivers left side of the vehicle (the side the fuel tank is located on) is massively biased on weight distribution. So by using a cell I can center it more evenly.
Using Carbon Fiber to build certain parts. Once I have enough money to do so, I plan on cutting the roof off the car, molding it, and building a carbon version which will be bolted back onto it. I have also been looking at building carbon tubing, which I could use in a variety of places over metal tubing. I would like to do a carbon intake sometime.
Drilling or slotting my brakes, eventually...their is much more weigh to be easily had before I start compromising my brakes.
Dimple Dies....interesting, I think I need to make a set of my own and use this instead of hole saw's/drilling when I can. Basically the concept is by bending part of the metal as you punch it out, you add a third dimension to the piece, thus its overall strength is only slightly diminished if you use proper measurements. The airplane industry uses thousands of dimple die punches on every one of their planes for weight savings.
Lexan windows...I still only have the lexan rear window and sunroof. I would like to run it for every window, including front window with aluminum supports. Then I have a bunch of crazy idea's about replacing brake pedals with carbon bits, and carbon e brake handle assemblys and....cutting the excess ends off every bolt....drilling out the bolts....yaddda yddddaaaaa should have enough to do to keep me busy forever in reality, theres always more weight to be saved.
rammmmmbleeeee....
List of things I want to try building that are reasonable (wait..whats that mean again?)
Fiberglass Hood
Fiberglass 1 piece front bumper + fenders.
Carbon E brake handle
Carbon Pedals
Sleaker Carbon Mirror block off panels
Fiberglass Doors
Fiberglass rear diffuser
Fiberglass side skirts
Carbon Engine Bracketry
List of things I want to try: Bamboo poles as construction materials, bamboo is an amazing material, it is one of the strongest materials on earth (for its weight) is has no grain lines, so it has no weak points like wood, it is tubular already, so in its natural state it is very strong because of its shape. Bamboo can be heat treated to become stronger than hard steel and can last almost indefinitely because it doesn't rust or break down.
I wont even go into how its better for the environment, because in a word, its amazing. It grows extremely fast and when a bamboo forest is cut down, the roots stay alive and regrow very rapidly. I first started looking at bamboo as a material when I read some fascinating articles about it being used as a major bridge building material in Asia. It is extremely flexible because it supports its own weight while being hollow and growing up to 90 feet tall.
The downside of bamboo...there is no universal strength ratings, so its still somewhat of a mystery to me as to what I would need and how much. The many different species can be heat treated to increase strength, but again, there is no collective list of what species are the strongest.
I've decided I will run a fuel cell, the new cells are built from fiberglass and plastic and weigh in at a fraction of conventional tanks. Plus, I have some serious weight problems with my rear end now. The drivers left side of the vehicle (the side the fuel tank is located on) is massively biased on weight distribution. So by using a cell I can center it more evenly.
Using Carbon Fiber to build certain parts. Once I have enough money to do so, I plan on cutting the roof off the car, molding it, and building a carbon version which will be bolted back onto it. I have also been looking at building carbon tubing, which I could use in a variety of places over metal tubing. I would like to do a carbon intake sometime.
Drilling or slotting my brakes, eventually...their is much more weigh to be easily had before I start compromising my brakes.
Dimple Dies....interesting, I think I need to make a set of my own and use this instead of hole saw's/drilling when I can. Basically the concept is by bending part of the metal as you punch it out, you add a third dimension to the piece, thus its overall strength is only slightly diminished if you use proper measurements. The airplane industry uses thousands of dimple die punches on every one of their planes for weight savings.
Lexan windows...I still only have the lexan rear window and sunroof. I would like to run it for every window, including front window with aluminum supports. Then I have a bunch of crazy idea's about replacing brake pedals with carbon bits, and carbon e brake handle assemblys and....cutting the excess ends off every bolt....drilling out the bolts....yaddda yddddaaaaa should have enough to do to keep me busy forever in reality, theres always more weight to be saved.
rammmmmbleeeee....
List of things I want to try building that are reasonable (wait..whats that mean again?)
Fiberglass Hood
Fiberglass 1 piece front bumper + fenders.
Carbon E brake handle
Carbon Pedals
Sleaker Carbon Mirror block off panels
Fiberglass Doors
Fiberglass rear diffuser
Fiberglass side skirts
Carbon Engine Bracketry
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31N007
31N007
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- Mazda Protege5
1998 Ford Contour SVT
2017 GTI DSG PP
2007 4Runner
Sounds like a lot to keep ya busy! If you're going to track the car ever, use or fashion a roll cage maybe? I wouldn't go and replace any strut braces or other things yet (or a roll cage in all honesty) until you can try and test the best strength to weight species (boy it sounds odd saying that) that'll work for your application.
Hope to see some massive updates in the near future mate
Hope to see some massive updates in the near future mate
iamthewheelman
Member
This is really interesting, especially the bamboo stuff. The lexan windows are great but are not very practical unless your turning your car into a race car. They scratch very easily and most of the drag racing guys that use them say they regret it. If your going for ultimate weight savings lexan typically requires rivots as well. As for the front windshield, lexan is not DOT approved as far as I know either.
On the braking end of things, you would be better off to go with a 2 piece rotor with an aluminum hat and an aftermarket caliper. Much better performance wise and lighter in the end. I imagine if you have that much info you have heard this stuff but just thought I would share (Y)
Well, for the windshield and side windows I would get a scratch resistant coated lexan. Its pretty pricey, but it will not scratch, people use windshield wipers on it just fine. 0.o
Although in all honesty, I have not had a problem with my lexan rear window/sunroof at all so far, its just basic lexan from home depot and I'm 90% sure its not treated but I have not had a single problem with it so far. I read all the horror stories online everywhere about lexan in general but I love it, works great and I have not had a problem with it. Maybe I'm just really careful idk.
And yes, before I do the doors/roof in composites I WILL be caging the car at least to some degree. (I'm trying to decide if I want to do it for SCCA specifications or go even further and go as far as land speed racing specs. (someday I'd really love to goto Bonneville) Chromoly steel tubing will most likely be used for that when I get to that point.
Yea, immediate next on my list is the diffuser. I've made several flow simulations and I think I've found the design I want to use.
I would really like to incorporate bamboo into my next hood, so thats probably after the diffuser even though my current hood is in a sorry shape after the...ahem....flight test.
Although in all honesty, I have not had a problem with my lexan rear window/sunroof at all so far, its just basic lexan from home depot and I'm 90% sure its not treated but I have not had a single problem with it so far. I read all the horror stories online everywhere about lexan in general but I love it, works great and I have not had a problem with it. Maybe I'm just really careful idk.
And yes, before I do the doors/roof in composites I WILL be caging the car at least to some degree. (I'm trying to decide if I want to do it for SCCA specifications or go even further and go as far as land speed racing specs. (someday I'd really love to goto Bonneville) Chromoly steel tubing will most likely be used for that when I get to that point.
Yea, immediate next on my list is the diffuser. I've made several flow simulations and I think I've found the design I want to use.
I would really like to incorporate bamboo into my next hood, so thats probably after the diffuser even though my current hood is in a sorry shape after the...ahem....flight test.
I'm actually thinking of making a 1 piece bumper/diffuser, so you'd have to end up cutting your bumper up, or getting an entire rear bumper from me. Making a diffuser while keeping your entire rear bumper will do very little good from my simulations. You need to have an upwards slope for the air to merge with the air coming over the top of the rear of the vehicle. You won't be able to get a large enough angle to properly achieve a venturi effect without removing some material. I've spent quite a while studying diffuser designs now and I'm sure this is the best way to go about things. Most people don't even seem to understand how a rear diffuser actually works. Not trying to be attacking anyone or anything, but a certain diffuser that someone is building to sell on this forum is not being designed properly. Please, if anyone reads that and takes it the wrong way, don't, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, that is not an attack. I've just spent a ridiculous amount of time modelling flow simulations and researching anything I can get my hands on and I'm sure this is the best way to go about it.
Maybe I'll change my mind, but the way I envision it right now is like this.
I cut the section outlined in green out.
Install a sloping strake design in the cut out section. Obviously this is just a quick sketch of how I envision it at this time. I'm still playing around with the actual strake design's now right now determining the best length and how far to space them. I'm not especially keen on posting actual pictures of my 3D models, because I don't especially care for copy cats. But you get the idea of where this is going from this sketch.
If you take a look at the way Ferrari builds their diffusers, they will look fairly similar to the one I have in mind.
Notice a trend?
Yet another example of an upwards sloping design.
By leaving the majority of the stock bumper, your trapping air and creating a parachute effect in addition to not getting the full benefit of the diffusers own effect on smoothing out airflow and merging air streams with the air coming from the top of the vehicle.
Now, formula 1 teams started getting really clever several years ago, and in 2011 the FIA they banned double deck diffusers from F1. The teams using these were shaving more than half a second off each lap compared to single deck diffusers. I've considered these, but for a "street car" it seems a bit much (wait, did I just say that?) You would end up with more vent holes in the upper portion of the rear bumper, which might not be a problem if I'm making the entire thing from glass, but like I said, it would require an entirely new bumper, and not just an addition.
anyways.....yea....that's my thoughts. (scratch)
iamthewheelman
Member
Now that is bad ass. Subtle and functional (Y)
I'm actually thinking of making a 1 piece bumper/diffuser, so you'd have to end up cutting your bumper up, or getting an entire rear bumper from me. Making a diffuser while keeping your entire rear bumper will do very little good from my simulations. You need to have an upwards slope for the air to merge with the air coming over the top of the rear of the vehicle. You won't be able to get a large enough angle to properly achieve a venturi effect without removing some material. I've spent quite a while studying diffuser designs now and I'm sure this is the best way to go about things. Most people don't even seem to understand how a rear diffuser actually works. Not trying to be attacking anyone or anything, but a certain diffuser that someone is building to sell on this forum is not being designed properly. Please, if anyone reads that and takes it the wrong way, don't, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, that is not an attack. I've just spent a ridiculous amount of time modelling flow simulations and researching anything I can get my hands on and I'm sure this is the best way to go about it.
Maybe I'll change my mind, but the way I envision it right now is like this.
I cut the section outlined in green out.
Install a sloping strake design in the cut out section. Obviously this is just a quick sketch of how I envision it at this time. I'm still playing around with the actual strake design's now right now determining the best length and how far to space them. I'm not especially keen on posting actual pictures of my 3D models, because I don't especially care for copy cats. But you get the idea of where this is going from this sketch.
If you take a look at the way Ferrari builds their diffusers, they will look fairly similar to the one I have in mind.
Notice a trend?
Yet another example of an upwards sloping design.
By leaving the majority of the stock bumper, your trapping air and creating a parachute effect in addition to not getting the full benefit of the diffusers own effect on smoothing out airflow and merging air streams with the air coming from the top of the vehicle.
Now, formula 1 teams started getting really clever several years ago, and in 2011 the FIA they banned double deck diffusers from F1. The teams using these were shaving more than half a second off each lap compared to single deck diffusers. I've considered these, but for a "street car" it seems a bit much (wait, did I just say that?) You would end up with more vent holes in the upper portion of the rear bumper, which might not be a problem if I'm making the entire thing from glass, but like I said, it would require an entirely new bumper, and not just an addition.
anyways.....yea....that's my thoughts. (scratch)
I'll throw money your way, either way!
Haha well, I'll post my testing up here and you can see how it goes. Biggest thing I have to test is the angle of attack on the strakes. Get my camera stuck down behind me and drive it around and compare different types of strake design.
I'll build it so that the strakes will be removable so if the strakes get damaged or need to be switched to different kinds, that's fairly easy. Make em bolt in with some sort of fastener. I've modeled the flow through several versions with 3D flow simulations, but we all know real world also has some say. Especially depending on how much the car weighs and ride height. There is some calculations for optimal design based on this as well. Very light cars, especially with very light biased rear ends like mine, I want to run a very high angle of attack. Maybe heavier cars wont actually need that much. Who knows till I test it, I can toss some buckets of lead in the back and see how it affects it. I don't want to build parts where they are not optimal for our cars.
Basically, trying to get the most rear down force for the least drag. Some car companies have funded studies which I've read papers about, where they were attempting to design diffusers to help smooth the air at highways speeds, and were able to achieve 3-5% in fuel economy by keeping the angle of attack low and focusing on the smoothing of the flow rather than smoothing and downforce generation.
This stuff gets me too excited
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- aggressive auto culture
interesting...
How can you bond two pieces of bamboo together and still retain the structural rigidity? How can you guarantee that there are no flaws or micro fractures? I like the fuel cell idea. Iv been thinking about doing the same only putting it on rails so it can move forward and backward. More adjustments the better. Totally agree with you on diffusers. I hate how mine sits right now, problem is the spare tire well currently occupies the space. I think if I cut some of the bumper support and bumper up I'll be able to get it sitting flat all along the bumper which should give me a AOT of ~11 deg.
How can you bond two pieces of bamboo together and still retain the structural rigidity? How can you guarantee that there are no flaws or micro fractures? I like the fuel cell idea. Iv been thinking about doing the same only putting it on rails so it can move forward and backward. More adjustments the better. Totally agree with you on diffusers. I hate how mine sits right now, problem is the spare tire well currently occupies the space. I think if I cut some of the bumper support and bumper up I'll be able to get it sitting flat all along the bumper which should give me a AOT of ~11 deg.
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- aggressive auto culture
About the cage, build it to what ever you wanna race now, because chances are when you actually wanna race at Bonneville the cage specs are going to be different. If you race Nasa or Scca build it to those specs. Chrome moly tubing is sometimes pointless. At the end of the day chrome moly is the same weight. As DOM in equal sizes. The only real benefit is strength, DOM @ 65000psi and vs chrome moly @ 97000 psi. This allows you to use a tube that has less wall and/or thickness. the thing is not all sanctioning bodies allow you to do that. That's why I went with DOM. Much cheaper and way easier to work with. Especially if your gonna attempt to do this buy your self!