Piggyback installed

[igdrasil]

Well people, last night I saw my friends 10.9 second 323 (built FS-DE engine). Will open a new thread with video and pictures soon.

Hes using a complete standalone Haltech E6K with 880cc injectors...tuned with a 2bar map sensor, air temp sensor, coolant sensor and stuff.

cold start=idles fine
hot restart=idles fine
boost=you know it...

Im really thinking on giving my car to him unless I see something more economic/efective to my car (thinking on a Mazdaspeed ECU).

I thought I had to share this with you guys cause' I know you like it. I was very impressed as how the car idles, nearly as good as my stock protege, just a little low.

 

[Micah]

i dont think any universal piggyback is gonna be able to true tune and hold the setting until the pcm is "cracke" and the tuner actually is apart of the pcm and makes it into a sort of stand laone....kind alike hondata or the one thing turboxs has for the wrx.....i think when a tuner cracks the code of our pcm we will have a good tuner...

another thing i was thinkin....why hasnt anyone bothered to think about eprom tuning yet...or basiclaly "flashing" our pcm our selves ?!?! i know its too general of a tune but it is still a start and would open doors for possible programable "flashs" like u would do on a eprom...i remeber a nissan tuner that would dyno tune cars and "flash" the eprom tune once he was done...just ideas

It's been thought about - from what I have heard, nobody has been able to crack it yet. I believe it's an EEC-V. Which has been around for a while. I'm no stranger to emulation, and eprom reading isn't a simple one step process. It's often painstaking work. I am constantly updating my MAME roms because of small mistakes in eprom reading. The difference here is that a bad rom on my emulator might freeze my game, or cause erratic behavior/improper graphics/sound sample errors. A bad rom in your cars ECU? It really wouldn't be pretty. The margin for error just isn't there.

Can it be done - sure! But it will cost a great deal of money for someones time to produce a truly accurate image of the ECU. Honestly - I don't think there is enough of a market for this car to drive one company to spend the dough.

Then again - that's just my uninformed opinion.

 

[PaulMP3]

All of this makes me happy that I didn't jump the gun and buy a turbo kit in the last couple of years (with a credit card even while soaked in debt). When I turbo this spring/summer, I want a reliable setup on my MP3. If it means running a non-IC kit with a P5 ECU and a voltage clamp at 5psi, I'll do that. If it means running a IC kit and spending the extra dough on a E6X, I'll do that.

I'd love to see the eManage or MPI tuner issues cleared through USE, because they are half the cost of the E6X. I'm very curious if paulMP3s problems can be solved or not. Please keep us updated everybody.

Chris

With a FMU, P5 ecu, and a voltage clamp at 6psi. When i was running with an FMU everything was very consistant and didnt need adjusting. Just be sure to tune it with a WBO2 the first time you set up your car to be sure you are running good AFR. If you do this the car will be fast and hassle free.

My car runs great, and my AFR are always on point while boosting, I just have to re-tune here and there, not ideal for the daily driver, but it doesnt bother me much. It seems my MPI tuner is more consistant lately, i think it is because the ECU has pulled all the fuel it can, so i havent made any changes in a while. In the begining i had to retune every 500 miles or so.

 

[PaulMP3]

I really do not know why Paul has had any problems. I have never had Andy give me a call or e-mail with any problems with the system. He is the one that I sold the unit to and he is the one that installed and tuned it for Paul.

He claims to have a problem with this but I am sure he does not have it tuned right. Also he is not tuning with his MAF and he is not clamping anything.

We just did a Protege that runs up to 8psi. It has only the stock OEM injectors. We are seeing 11.8s AFR and it never runs lean.


Thanks again


Later....Nick

Why dont you send us some new instructions on how to install it. Everything came pre tune all we did was adjust the fuel maps where needed. This is what you kept saying was needed, so this is what we did. When boosting my car runs perfect AFR, i have a WB02 in my car at all times so i can monitor it. When i see my AFR creeping up into the 12's i just re adjust to keep it perfect.

When you say "it is not tuned right" i dont understand You always say all that needs to be done is simple adjustments to the injector maps which we did and the car runs perfect AFR for a certain amount of time untill the ECU starts to pull more fuel.. Like i stated before, it seems to not be pulling much fuel latley, the first few months it did it often. My question is how does the MPI tuner stop the stock ecu from pulling fuel?? It should have been preset in the MPI tuner to do so. Unless there are some other wires that need hooked up, that were left out on the instructions.

Since you didnt even tune the intial "Micah map" with a wideband how do you know it wasnt pulling fuel? Jaje uses a Autometer afr and his always said rich, and when he went to andys and hooked it up to the WB it showed his afr back at 14.7 and he needed to add alot of fuel.. Maybe this is why micahs car ran good for a while than all of a sudden blew up? Also when my afr starts creeping up, everything felt an sounded fine still but the WB showed it was heading toward the lean side..

 

[PaulMP3]

Well people, last night I saw my friends 10.9 second 323 (built FS-DE engine). Will open a new thread with video and pictures soon.

Hes using a complete standalone Haltech E6K with 880cc injectors...tuned with a 2bar map sensor, air temp sensor, coolant sensor and stuff.

cold start=idles fine
hot restart=idles fine
boost=you know it...

Im really thinking on giving my car to him unless I see something more economic/efective to my car (thinking on a Mazdaspeed ECU).

I thought I had to share this with you guys cause' I know you like it. I was very impressed as how the car idles, nearly as good as my stock protege, just a little low.

sweet.. you should give him your car Standalone seems to be the way to go, unless you want to battle the stock ECU.

 

[PaulMP3]

We just did a Protege that runs up to 8psi. It has only the stock OEM injectors. We are seeing 11.8s AFR and it never runs lean.


Thanks again


Later....Nick

What are you using to come up with the 11.8AFR??? are you using a wideband, or the stock o2 sensor? Brand?

 

[MPNick]

What are you using to come up with the 11.8AFR??? are you using a wideband, or the stock o2 sensor? Brand?

He has a meter in his car, I think it is an Autometer. The MPI Tuner O2 meter is also full rich at the same time.

I am not sure what brand Dana has but his car never runs lean when he hits the throttle.

Thanks again


Later..............Nick

 

[PaulMP3]

dana has a Uego WBo2, same as mine.

The mpi tuner O2 meter is the stock O2 sensor correct???

 

[PaulMP3]

Hmm, my ECU never "re learned" anything when I ran an FMU...

Anyway, yeah, Once I initially set my maps, I had to richen it up a few times over the next few weeks...but that may also partially be due to temperature change. I haven't retuned the maps in awhile now...I'm still running the correct A:F.

Have you reset your ECU since changing the maps??? Im afraid if i reset my ECU i will have to go through richening it up all over again.. Or will the ECU stay how it was, in terms of the amount of fuel it pulls?

 

[Kooldino]

He has a meter in his car, I think it is an Autometer. The MPI Tuner O2 meter is also full rich at the same time.

I am not sure what brand Dana has but his car never runs lean when he hits the throttle.

Thanks again


Later..............Nick

Personally, I only trust my wideband, but yeah...I'm always plenty rich. I too had to readjust my maps here and there like paul, but I haven't touched them in forever now. I just wish I had my ignition set up so I could really see what this thing does. Still trying to figure out how I'm going to go about things tho.

 

[Kooldino]

Have you reset your ECU since changing the maps???

Nope

Im afraid if i reset my ECU i will have to go through richening it up all over again.. Or will the ECU stay how it was, in terms of the amount of fuel it pulls?

Yeah, that's something i've considered as well. But If I had to go through the richening stage all over again, I would take bigger jumps.

I guess that's the only real downside of the MPI Tuner...once it's in, it MAY have to be retuned from time to time (which only takes a few minutes). But hell, for the price, I can't complain.

 

[PaulMP3]

agreed... tuning only takes 10 minutes by myself Wideband O2 is key. It is only a hassle for me b/c i have to borrow my laptop off my mom.

 

[Micah]

Since you didnt even tune the intial "Micah map" with a wideband how do you know it wasnt pulling fuel

I am now a legacy!!!!

ph33r

It was both Nick Mannarino and Nick Karanackis who agreed and said that my stock rod bolts gave out. They have both seen the pieces and the engine. Honestly, I don't know what happenned. I do know that when the engine blew the first thing I thought of was "I've got 5 years left of payments - and now it needs an engine".

But hell - if everyone keeps calling it the "Micah Map" - I think I'll feel better about it.

 

[PaulMP3]

I am now a legacy!!!!

ph33r

It was both Nick Mannarino and Nick Karanackis who agreed and said that my stock rod bolts gave out. They have both seen the pieces and the engine. Honestly, I don't know what happenned. I do know that when the engine blew the first thing I thought of was "I've got 5 years left of payments - and now it needs an engine".

But hell - if everyone keeps calling it the "Micah Map" - I think I'll feel better about it.

I have it saved on my laptop as micah map..lol

post some pics of the pistons and rods block for others to see.. I would like to see what others think. you didnt have your kit on long and im sure many turbo protege msper have rev past redline and didnt have a problem.. Im not doubting there knowledge, i would just like to hear others opinions on what went down after veiwing pics. Also the fact that no Wideband was used to tune it.... just tuned by ear.

 

[MPNick]

I dont think is a problem with the ECU negating changes.
I think is the preprogramed values being loaded by the stock ECU for closed loop operation.
If the piggyback only acts as soon as boost is detected, then its allowing the ECU to read all sensors while offboost and eventually looping around correct values in a specific situation, so when the boost comes again, and the ECU decided to pull some fuel on the closed loop operation, i think it will compensate by pulling a % of fuel when open loop comes up.
I dont know, this is me guessing.

Any changes made in open loop would not be relearned in closed loop. This is one of the reason why we send the PCM into open loop before we hit full boost. This when we add as much fuel as we need under boost load.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick

 

[505zoom]

But how about PULLING fuel in closed AND open loop??? That is one of the main things I need it for.

 

[MPNick]

But how about PULLING fuel in closed AND open loop??? That is one of the main things I need it for.

Taking fuel out has never been any problem at all. The hard thing has been adding fuel and keeping it in.


Thanks again


Later............Nick

 

[505zoom]

Taking fuel out has never been any problem at all. The hard thing has been adding fuel and keeping it in.


Thanks again


Later............Nick

Well, if adding fuel is a problem because the PCM starts pulling it, why wouldn't it be the same and add fuel as I pull it???

 

[Installshield 2]

Have you reset your ECU since changing the maps??? Im afraid if i reset my ECU i will have to go through richening it up all over again.. Or will the ECU stay how it was, in terms of the amount of fuel it pulls?

Paul...To my knowledge, exactly...Resetting the ECU by fully unloading it (not just an MIL erase with a logger, but by disconnecting the battery) will erase any "learned" parameters the ECU is using...It will start the process over, so with that you will most likely go back to pig rich and need readjustments...

MPNick I think I may agree with your "pulling fuel" post...From what I have seen the PCM has not had much of a problem with being told to run leaner...But most of the piggyback problems have been centered around adding fuel and getting the ECU not to pull it back over time...it does not do it initially...It keeps the added fuel for a little while, basically as in an "on the fly" adjustment...but the adjustment doesn't stay fixed for very long, and the ECU will keep trying to pull the fuel back...

 

[505zoom]

Nick, do you have a A/F graph from a msp running your tuner??? I would be more interested if I could see a graph showing a nice transition from closed to open loop, and a consistant A/F under boost. The graphs that I have seen of the stock car really show the pulsing that I have always felt while accelerating.

I am looking for a device that will undo the flash and its timing advance, while also pulling enough fuel to make it run smoothly. I live at 7200 ft. and the rich nature of this car is really starting to drive me nuts. How good will your tuner work for my application???

Having to keep tuning it doesn't really bother me that much, but I use a mac laptop so I would have to borrow a computer from someone everytime I needed a change. Any chance I could somehow use my mac???

Thanks for answering my questions.

Happy new year
-Rich