Microtech EMS

[TurfBurn]

Yes you do. To run true sepuential you need a cam sensor or another way to find number 2 cylinder.

The Microtech knows the firing sequence based off of TDC.. It then determines the sequencing and triggers each injector for the proper cylinder based off the known rotation, angle, and CAS signal. The system knows how many teeth the CAS has and specifically determines which cylinder is where based on the CAS signals. It's one of the reasons good CAS connections and ensuring the shielding is grounded properly is important. But the Microtech runs true sequential without the cam sensor. And I have never heard of any CAS signal issues with the system either.

 

[igdrasil]

The Microtech knows the firing sequence based off of TDC.. It then determines the sequencing and triggers each injector for the proper cylinder based off the known rotation, angle, and CAS signal. The system knows how many teeth the CAS has and specifically determines which cylinder is where based on the CAS signals. It's one of the reasons good CAS connections and ensuring the shielding is grounded properly is important. But the Microtech runs true sequential without the cam sensor. And I have never heard of any CAS signal issues with the system either.

Now that you bring this up. Does your microtech works with our stock cranksensor and trigger wheel?
Also, the electromotive has one nice and accesible feature (extra, you have to buy it) a fuel trim and ignition trim that you can use it to do some minimal adjust without the laptop, it allows you to do some changes to the fuel/ignition trim by 2% steps and 2deg sted for timing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7974489266&category=33553

 

[TurfBurn]

Now that you bring this up. Does your microtech works with our stock cranksensor and trigger wheel?
Also, the electromotive has one nice and accesible feature (extra, you have to buy it) a fuel trim and ignition trim that you can use it to do some minimal adjust without the laptop, it allows you to do some changes to the fuel/ignition trim by 2% steps and 2deg sted for timing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7974489266&category=33553

Yes it does work with ALL stock sensors.. you replace absolutely nothing..

Microtech does much better than that... they have a dash unit and also a hand unit and you can tune EVERYTHING from either of those units with no laptop needed... They have an ingenious system in how the computer responds to the commands in both the laptop and the hand unit. If you click slowly on the adjustment key/button it goes up by the smallest divider... the faster you click the faster it augments... so if you really click fast a bunch of times in the row 6 clicks can in theory give you like 14 degrees of timing... makes adjusments much faster...

The unit is incredibly well thought out, and the software is fantastic. I've used the MPI software, I've played with the Haltech software, and obviously know the Microtech software, and I am obviously somewhat biased, but I find it to be FAR nice than "the other guys'" software. (But their software isn't bad... just isn't as nice.. want to clarify that!)

 

[igdrasil]

Sounds good, I think im convinced. I already talked to Kike, he charges me 500 for install and tune. Maybe Im going to do the install, learn the software and have it running very conservative and then let him do the high PSI map for $250.00. He made a stock internal P5 run 267whp daily...but throwing rods due rpms (cheap rod bolts).

 

[TurfBurn]

Install is super easy... less than 2 hours to do it... The base map that is enough to drive on is posted in the Microtech maps section... so you can use that for your first tune (it uses 550cc injectors though.. I can create something for a different injector size if you want).

Later!

Steve

 

[igdrasil]

Install is super easy... less than 2 hours to do it... The base map that is enough to drive on is posted in the Microtech maps section... so you can use that for your first tune (it uses 550cc injectors though.. I can create something for a different injector size if you want).

Later!

Steve

dont worry Ill try to handle that...part of my tunning learning, I may even try to install it while I run N/A.

 

[igdrasil]

can I install rockets inside the fenders and be able to aim and launch with the microtech? jaja j/k

I need the software to practice on and maybe a log file ...i dont know

 

[TurfBurn]

can I install rockets inside the fenders and be able to aim and launch with the microtech? jaja j/k

I need the software to practice on and maybe a log file ...i dont know

well the software is a free download... but won't do anything unless an ECU is present... the ACTUAL software is on the ECU itself.. the stuff you download online is just an interface.. it's pretty neat.. if your laptop ever crashed it won't even phase the Microtech... so in other words... downloading the software won't do any good unfortunately...

I have a few log files around... and those you can open without the unit if you want...

Also, Keola published a really rough NA stock injector map that I worked on over the phone with him... that's in the Microtech maps section right now.

Later!

 

[MPNick]

The Microtech knows the firing sequence based off of TDC.. It then determines the sequencing and triggers each injector for the proper cylinder based off the known rotation, angle, and CAS signal. The system knows how many teeth the CAS has and specifically determines which cylinder is where based on the CAS signals. It's one of the reasons good CAS connections and ensuring the shielding is grounded properly is important. But the Microtech runs true sequential without the cam sensor. And I have never heard of any CAS signal issues with the system either.

This is not right. The crankshaft wheel will only tell you TDC. In order to run true sequential you need to know not only TDC but also if the cylinder is on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke. The way you are running the Microtech right now it is not true sequential. You are getting the injectors to fire everytime the CAS tells it we have TDC. This is why you need a camashaft, with it the ECM knows if it is compression or exhaust.

Now I do not see a problem in how you are running the system. It should work fine. It is just not true sequential.

 

[TurfBurn]

This is not right. The crankshaft wheel will only tell you TDC. In order to run true sequential you need to know not only TDC but also if the cylinder is on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke. The way you are running the Microtech right now it is not true sequential. You are getting the injectors to fire everytime the CAS tells it we have TDC. This is why you need a camashaft, with it the ECM knows if it is compression or exhaust.

Now I do not see a problem in how you are running the system. It should work fine. It is just not true sequential.

How do you figure Nick? The center two pistons move together, and the outer two pistons move together... very simple to run a sequence off of that... what you are saying would mandate that every single car that didn't run a cam pickup sensor would require you to batch fire the spark as well. Which is also completely incorrect and could cause serious issues as you'd have a spark plug that could potentially be igniting mixture coming into the chamber on the intake stroke... which certainly doesn't happen...

If I have to video it with lights on each cylinder to prove it to you I will... It says right on the Microtech box as well "Sequential Fire" and has been one of their trademark items since they first created the LT series ECU's. It's not that hard for the ECU to read all the teeth on the CAS to determine where it needs to be but also at the same time based on the last single revolution knowing that time base you can also determine the location of each cylinder to a rather accurate level additionally. There are lots of ways to do it. Which way the Microtech does it I'm not 100% certain, but I am certain it does... Our crank has 30+ teeth (either 31 or 32 I think.. I belive it is a 31-1) which means each pulse the CAS sends is a 12 degree location... since the pistons are phased by 180 degrees.. that means you have 15 pulses with which to caclulate and interpolate a location... additionally, if you pair that with known rpm data, and work with your ignition signals together... then right there you have all the info you need to know where every cylinder is at any given time.

NOTE: The crank angle sensor crosses 0 volts 63 times during a rotation... twice per tooth (each edge of the tooth.. you get a rise and a falling crossing) and then the one "long" pulse which stays at 0 for a fraction of a second is the TDC ref mark.. I have scope images of this signal... and can post them if need be. So there is MUCH more data there than just TDC.

Also, because the teeth are all cut even.. in theory you actually have 64 markers per rotation.. which is a resolution of roughly 6 degrees.

 

[MPNick]

How do you figure Nick? The center two pistons move together, and the outer two pistons move together... very simple to run a sequence off of that... what you are saying would mandate that every single car that didn't run a cam pickup sensor would require you to batch fire the spark as well. Which is also completely incorrect and could cause serious issues as you'd have a spark plug that could potentially be igniting mixture coming into the chamber on the intake stroke... which certainly doesn't happen...

We have a 36 tooth wheel with one missing.
Almost all cars ran batch or bank up to a few years ago. Most four cylinder PCMs only had two injector drivers. They were paired to two injectors each.

You still never know if you are compression or the exhaust stroke. This is what a camshaft sensor does.

 

[TurfBurn]

We have a 36 tooth wheel with one missing.
Almost all cars ran batch or bank up to a few years ago. Most four cylinder PCMs only had two injector drivers. They were paired to two injectors each.

You still never know if you are compression or the exhaust stroke. This is what a camshaft sensor does.

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I'll do direct investigation.. I have a scope here with 4 channels and digital storage.. so I'll tap all 4 signals and record it... and we'll see what we get! But I'm pretty confident it will show sequential. I'll post regardless.... but if I do that.. I expect to see some measurements proving the MPI can advance timing (largely teasing) That one is still a mystery to me as to how it's possible... I don't doubt your word, just am unbelieving that it's doable.

 

[Bigg Tim]

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I'll do direct investigation.. I have a scope here with 4 channels and digital storage.. so I'll tap all 4 signals and record it... and we'll see what we get! But I'm pretty confident it will show sequential. I'll post regardless.... but if I do that.. I expect to see some measurements proving the MPI can advance timing (largely teasing) That one is still a mystery to me as to how it's possible... I don't doubt your word, just am unbelieving that it's doable.

How is it a mystery how the MPI controls timing? The unit controls the ignition directly, no manipulation there. It retards or advances off the existing timing. The coil wires are cut from the ECU, sent through the MPI then back to the ECU. That's direct control to me. Don't know about all this sequential s*** though!!!

 

[TurfBurn]

How is it a mystery how the MPI controls timing? The unit controls the ignition directly, no manipulation there. It retards or advances off the existing timing. The coil wires are cut from the ECU, sent through the MPI then back to the ECU. That's direct control to me. Don't know about all this sequential s*** though!!!

Nick has said it can advance timing, so I trust his statement... but here is the quandry... The MPI doesn't have a hard coded timing map, just a map of "adjustments" So it relies on the stock ECU to control all the timing and then it modifies the signal to adjust it. So now think about advancing timing. The MPI would have to send out an ignition signal before it would receive one from the ECU, yet it has no idea at that moment what the timing will be to make that guess. At that given moment in time is that gas pedal being fed in and the timing going up... or is it going down? How can the MPI know what the timing signal will be before it gets it from the ECU, and if it can't know before it gets it from the ECU, how will it know to send it earlier yet to advance the timing?

I don't want this to get totally OT... So if this starts heading into a big discussion, I then recommend that we all delete our posts and any content about the MPI and timing... and I'll be happy to do so... but for now maybe this will end quickly and shortly and not become a massive issue.

Later!

Steve

 

[TurfBurn]

Thinking about things when I am a good bit more awake, I understand the issue that Nick is pointing out. So I will have to scope the Microtech to see what it does. I realize that it takes 2 full revolutions of the crank to fire all 4 cylinders, and thus Nick's point is how do you know which TDC you are at... is the cam lined up for cylinder 2 or cylinder 3 on that TDC... so I follow that and will have to investigate it further to know... but I'll post what it does or doesn't do. I know it does make a difference when you switch from Batch to Sequential fire on the unit... so the question is what is it doing!

Later!

Steve

 

[MPNick]

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I'll do direct investigation.. I have a scope here with 4 channels and digital storage.. so I'll tap all 4 signals and record it... and we'll see what we get! But I'm pretty confident it will show sequential. I'll post regardless.... but if I do that.. I expect to see some measurements proving the MPI can advance timing (largely teasing) That one is still a mystery to me as to how it's possible... I don't doubt your word, just am unbelieving that it's doable.

Your scope may show that you can fire the injectors 1-3-4-2. It will not show if it is timed to the intake valve opening. This is why you need a camshaft sensor. It will tell the EMS that number one compression is the next cylinder to fire.


Never knew the MPI timing was in question. Take a timing light and aim it at the timing mark on the crankshaft. Start adding timing. You will see the timing advance and the idle speed go up.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Nick has said it can advance timing, so I trust his statement... but here is the quandry... The MPI doesn't have a hard coded timing map, just a map of "adjustments" So it relies on the stock ECU to control all the timing and then it modifies the signal to adjust it. So now think about advancing timing. The MPI would have to send out an ignition signal before it would receive one from the ECU, yet it has no idea at that moment what the timing will be to make that guess. At that given moment in time is that gas pedal being fed in and the timing going up... or is it going down? How can the MPI know what the timing signal will be before it gets it from the ECU, and if it can't know before it gets it from the ECU, how will it know to send it earlier yet to advance the timing?

I don't want this to get totally OT... So if this starts heading into a big discussion, I then recommend that we all delete our posts and any content about the MPI and timing... and I'll be happy to do so... but for now maybe this will end quickly and shortly and not become a massive issue.

Later!

Steve

Okay last post about the MPI.....my statement above was in regards to the wiring. The ECU sends the signal for the appropriate timing out to the coils. Well since the MPI is in between them, it recieves that signal and increases or decreases how ever much you say to do. That's how it would get the timing numbers, from the ECU, it just changes it before sending it out.

So with the Microtech, the unit say's it runs sequentially, does it say anything in the manual about how it does it without the Cam sensor? I don't know anything about this s***, but I am interested in learning. Maybe there's some type of mathmatical formula that it uses to take the place of the Cam sensor? What other ways are there to know where the Cam is at any given moment, meaning is there anything else on the engine that would know?

 

[PRO 5]

Okay last post about the MPI.....my statement above was in regards to the wiring. The ECU sends the signal for the appropriate timing out to the coils. Well since the MPI is in between them, it recieves that signal and increases or decreases how ever much you say to do. That's how it would get the timing numbers, from the ECU, it just changes it before sending it out.

Hmmmmm..... So if it gets the signal from the ECU then how would it advance the timing? It will have to wait for the signal sooooo. I don't get it. How can it alter a signal to fire before it receives the signal? Sorry about adding to the off topic. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how the engine management aspect works on our cars.

Dave

 

[Bigg Tim]

Hmmmmm..... So if it gets the signal from the ECU then how would it advance the timing? It will have to wait for the signal sooooo. I don't get it. How can it alter a signal to fire before it receives the signal? Sorry about adding to the off topic. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how the engine management aspect works on our cars.

Dave

The ECU knows what timing it wants the car to have. It sends the signal to the coils to fire, the MPI get's that signal before it goes to the coils, then changes the signal to do what it (the MPI) wants to do. So it will change the timing the ECU sends out, so that is how you advance or retard. So where do you get the alter a signal to fire before it get's it? It goes....ECU-->MPI-->Motor. So the MPI gets all signals, it's wired to get, from teh ECU and changes them before they go to the motor. I guess that wasn't the last post.

 

[BlkZoomZoom]

Just to add to this....the cycle happens really, really fast. And yes I have witnessed the advanced timing because I didn't think it could do it either. And yes, yes it can.