Imaging... front soundstage

[Poseur]

There's a couple different ideas on this all. I've always been of the keep the speaker seperate, (as on-axis mounting puts the tweeter in the way of the center of the midbass causing disturbance) but close so as to eliminate "seperation" and keep the ear distance form the left spk as close as possible to the distance from the right. (ie the classic kick-panel location) of cours emy problem with this was always that whenever there's 2 ppl in the seats, unless you arrange your legs soasto not interfere with the line from speaker-to-ear, It more or less nullifies all of that work (and expense, kick panels ain't cheap)

Now, stock newer cars come with sail-mounted tweets, and alot of ppl are claiming the high-mount tweet "brings your soundstage up" I've never thought much of this, but I'll have to admit that while I've been driving around with the stock system for awhile, I'm almost pleased with it. I guess it all comes down to preferance, but before I go tossing money one way or the other, perhaps someone could shed some more light on it all so I can make a more informed decision. Either way, I'm pondering running 6.5" seperates, and just making spacers. Hoever, I've been thinking of perhaps copping out and just going with the 5x7 infinity kappa coaxes so I can drop-in and forget about it, but that may just be too easy, and I've got those spiffy tweeter sail-pods going to waste. I've had a couple renditions of nice seperates for years now in my old honda, don't want this to be too much of a step in the wrong direction.

I feel embarassingly underinformed on this whole matter for being an amature audiophile for as long as I have been. But I kind of feel that there is no definitive answer. What're you guys' thoughts on this?

 

[servoeyes]

Ho'k...here's my take:

Yes, having the tweeters up high brings the soundstage up. However...it brings up solely the highs, so you better love your tweeter. You can't moe the woofer up, because that will really throw off the soundstage from left to right (unless you've got time correction (drool)).

I'm not a big fan of the tweeters in the sail pods...it's just...eh. Also...dependant on the speaker, a braxial would do you just fine (like the Boston Z-series). However...remember, if you run components, you'll give them more power. You give them more power with the tweets up high, and you'll want them to be pretty mellow, otherwise, they're all you'll hear. I also noticed that you have an Eclipse amp, like I do (except yours is the step up), which means your sepakers will have extremely transparent response...not a god thing with those tweeters up high.

My opinion, is that you can solve the problem by killing 2 birds with one stone...get the BA 5x7 Rally (RC820) components. Obviously, you'll want to hear them first, but I highly suggest taking a listen to those.

 

[mcstark]

Pose - I would agree with you on the factory system...I have the in-dash changer and I'm quite impressed with the factory setup. I've been checking out Crutchfield for a while, and thinking of going with 5 1/4" components and trying to get the tweeters to fit the stock locations. I'm not sure how big the factory tweeters are, so it's difficult to say if anything aftermarket would fit. I've seen the audio FAQ, but didn't see anything definitive on the tweeters.

We sound alike in our quest to keep it stock looking while upgrading the quality. I know when I just had coaxials in my Neon with an aftermarket HU (more power) it sounded really good. But that car had 6x9's in the back deck. I also have no desire to lose cargo space by putting a sub in the trunk, so the door drivers have to carry their own when it comes to bass.

So here's my thoughts:
Front doors: Components (5x7 or whatever will fit) with tweeters in the factory locations.
Rear foors: Coaxial 6 1/2's that put out decent bass. I've found that Pioneers work well for this application.

Again, I'm a novice, like you so if anyone has a better suggestion please let us know. I know that space in the back doors is at a premium, so not much will fit there.

 

[Greg S]

If you are going to go for components then have a look out there at the 5X7/6X8 compontents that are offered, Boston, Infinity and a few others. No the tweeter up that high is not as ideal as having it next to the midbass, but if you ae not wanting to take the time and money for kick panels or don't want to modify the lower door panel then it is a decent compromise. Also many of the better speaker companies are now making the x-overs adjustable to deal with sail panel placement of tweeters, it's not perfect but it's better than nothing.

 

[bjdesire]

i dont know much about the whole technicalities of an install but i can tell you from experiance, upgrade. i put in an alpine head unit, and i thought i was pleased. it sounded great, had good volume, decent bass on the stock speakers. then i went out, i got a good phoenix gold 4 channel amp, and 4 mb quart speakers. it set me back almost a grand, but well worth it. my system sounds amazing now. if you need any help picking out parts or with the installation feel free to PM me.

 

[bjdesire]

i also recommend dynomatting all the doors when you install the speakers, it makes a HUGE difference.

 

[mcstark]

I will second that...I dynomatted my Neon's doors and it made a HUGE difference.

 

[1551Racing]

Kicks are ideal as long as your not in the car, the factory placed pods by the window are definately convenient, but again as stated above raises the imaging of your highs only and not the mids. Ideally, you want the tweets within 9" of the woofer. If you want a fairly inexpensiv way of getting suburb sound staging go with an Alpine deck with the Bass Engine plus or even better pro featre in the deck which will give you 4 or 6 channel digital time correction. CDA-9811 has the plus, CDA-9813 has pro. Stick with eclipse amp, one of the best sounds on the market.

 

[Poseur]

Wow, thanks for input everyone...

mc- as far as sizes go, the factory tweets are of course "keyed" to slide and clip right into the sial panels, but it would be simple enough to put somethign else in there. I already "test fit" an older pair of infinity silk domed tweeters I've had around and they physically fit pretty well, especially if I remove them from their housing, but I'd have to do some gluing, or creative construction to get them to fit nicely. Not something I was wanting to do when I wasn't really sure about even doing it. As long as you don't have HUGE tweeters, they shouldn't be a problem to replace, but the mood of everyone seems to be against that, and I'm kinda inclined to agree. But just pull the tweeter pods off and look for yourself, it's pretty easy to get into them.

One thing I always forget is that I used to run some kenwood crossovers from an old set of excelon dualmag components. I kept the crossovers forever because they had a built in tweeter attenuater. I always had it set to -2db until I started pushing higher powered speakers, then I ran it at -4db. I REALLY like having strong mids, and am not a big fan of chirpy tweets. Unfortunately I got rid of those, and am now starting from scratch again. which is nice in a way, but I'm getting overwhelmed with options. If I do components, I'll likely just build spacers and run 6.5's since everyone makes a nice 6.5" compnent set. (cutout a piece of wood in the rough shape of a 6x8, then cut a hole to mount a 6.5" in it, there seems to be plenty of room for that) Although I'm also gonna see how well a 5-1/4 would lineup with a tweeter right next to in in that "extra" space.

Of course with all of this trouble, Those 5x7 kappa coaxes are getting to be more and more tempting. for their drop-in ease. My only big concern is that with their odd size, they won't fit many of my friends' cars for doing the whole swap around kinda thing like I usually wind up doing. Maybe I should just bite the bullett and get that focal 3-way set that I've always drooled over ($1000+ for door speakers! *gulp*) build some kick pods for the midrange and tweet, etc. but then again there gets to be that "real world" imaging problem when there's legs in the way. For the rear I'm almost thinking of ditching the Refrences, and just slapping some 6.5" midbass speakers in for "fill"

ACK! what to do what to do... I'm getting sick of weak music. Got the deck and amps installed, just waiting for speakers before I start pushing power to them. And YES I seriously dig the eclipse amp for clean mids and highs, always have. not too spendy either. I nearly got an eclipse deck, but I'm an MP3 ***** and just couldn't justify buying a expensive deck that didn't do MP3, or their stupid "commander" just to facilitate that. In case you haven't checked the specs, that Clarion I've got is about the only thing out there that's got 24bit DAC's AND still plays mp3. It's nothing fancy,but it'll do until I get $ saved up for some dvd action.

 

[1sty]

I have built and used several kick panels and I definitly know what you mean about loosing there usefulness when another person is in the car.

However I have seen a few installs that did not. A chevy S10 blazer was the best so far.

It takes alot of time aiming but its possible. Also I actualy played with firing the tweeters more directly upward to smakc off the windows. This actualy helped not only rase the stage but kept feet from being a problem.

Something many people don't realize with kicks is that they have to be stuffed way up into the sides and the dash. If they are out to far they are useless. Sorry the dead pedal and stock side panels have to go.

Now as for putting the tweeter up high, it can be done but I have always heard the seperation where a symbol is up high but the vocals are down by your knees. The only time I have seen tweeters up high and done well is whne they are ambiant and very carefully aimed not to mention crossed over at 8-9K.
The alpines time correction is really good at raising the image and making it more balanced but it tends to muffle things a bit.

SPeakers even in the stock loaction down low can be aimed to sound good too. Its all a matter of tuning with and without a passanger in the car. Its a b**** but its the only way to get it right.