Funny: Against CF? Discuss.
- Thread starter Matthew
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FunkyBuddha
Tuned by Slick Nick
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- 2003 Spicy Orange MSP
I luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv CF
NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE AND MENT AS A FREINDLY RIP (wiggle)
I did read the artical, there are a few problems with using it soley for this argument. First of all, they in no way detailed how the times were measured. Did they do just one run and use that time? DId they do 10 and adverage them? Or did they take 10 runs and use the lowest time only?
The second problem, is that no one seems to realize that rotainal mass makes alo more of a difference then just dead weight. The wheel were swapped out for a saving of 52 pounds total, yet this yeilded the same gain (.3 seonds) as when they removed the A/C, alternator, exhuast, intake, antenna, head lights, tail lights, added a ram air setup, and readjusted the tire pressure. Know I don't know about you, but I have yet to see someone with a carbon fiber hood an trunk running 15" light wheels. Typicly its 17" or larger wheels which add considerably more time then swapping to a carbon fiber hood added in the first place.
They removed 273 pounds to gain .5 second (again they don't reveal the meathod used) You can add all the carbon fiber parts made for a protege today to the car and not be anywhere near that much in weight savings. If you wanted to, this would be that only listed spec to use to determin the effects of removing weight on 1/4 ETs. By this, you will get that removing 100 pounds will deduct, at best, .18 seconds from a 1/4 mile run. There is not a single person non perfessional drag racer alive that could tell the difference from running a 16.1 and a 15.9. Take any driver in the world and have him run the 1/4 mile 20 times. I guarentee there will be plety of times that he will guess he was faster then the time before, but he was actualy slower. BY this, no one can feel a differenc that the weight of a carbon fiber hood gives them. They don't save enough weight. Also, other then the best drivers in the world, typicly no one is consistant enough to even prove that a .1 second difference exists. Thats why I said to run the track and have someone add weight randomly to the car. Guess if the wieght was present or not. Not only will the 1/4 mile times not support that the weight made a consistan impact, but neither will the guessing.
Another issue, is that no one seems to know how much weight they have really saved. Most vendors won't even list it. How the hell can someone pretend they bought a product to save weight when they have no concept of how much they have saved. In a word...Stupidity.
The reality is the most everyone that buys a carbon fiber anything does it for looks. Rather its for themselves or for the judes. Although I think its about the ugliest thing you can do to a car, adding one for appearance sakes is fine. Buying one to gain points is something I can't respect. First of all, why the hell would anyone buy something to put on there car to place better in a competition if they didn't even like it? The answer is they wouldn't unless they have a trailor queen car or are a complete chowder head. Spending money only to place better in a meaningless competiton judged by several idiots who award points based on how much money you have obviously wasted on your car to make it ugly as possible is about the most asinine thing I can think of.
The breakdown:
- a carbon fiber hood is not a noticable or measurable performance gain
- Most people that buy them don't even know how much weight they have saved
- They are for appearence only when it comes to street cars and serve no other purpose. Any other reason is either a lie or BS.
- Most of the time any weight saving gains they present have been totaly counteracted by wheels, stereo equiptment, or ground effects.
So again I say, If they need to waste the money this badly they should just send it to me, I'll fly out, meet them, kick them in the sac, spray paint and bend their hood out of alignment.
These are my views on the subject and I have backed them all up, if you wish to argue the numbers, then prove me wrong by testing it as I have described to do so. If you wish to argue against my reasoning, I will be sure to PM you when I give a s***.
I did read the artical, there are a few problems with using it soley for this argument. First of all, they in no way detailed how the times were measured. Did they do just one run and use that time? DId they do 10 and adverage them? Or did they take 10 runs and use the lowest time only?
The second problem, is that no one seems to realize that rotainal mass makes alo more of a difference then just dead weight. The wheel were swapped out for a saving of 52 pounds total, yet this yeilded the same gain (.3 seonds) as when they removed the A/C, alternator, exhuast, intake, antenna, head lights, tail lights, added a ram air setup, and readjusted the tire pressure. Know I don't know about you, but I have yet to see someone with a carbon fiber hood an trunk running 15" light wheels. Typicly its 17" or larger wheels which add considerably more time then swapping to a carbon fiber hood added in the first place.
They removed 273 pounds to gain .5 second (again they don't reveal the meathod used) You can add all the carbon fiber parts made for a protege today to the car and not be anywhere near that much in weight savings. If you wanted to, this would be that only listed spec to use to determin the effects of removing weight on 1/4 ETs. By this, you will get that removing 100 pounds will deduct, at best, .18 seconds from a 1/4 mile run. There is not a single person non perfessional drag racer alive that could tell the difference from running a 16.1 and a 15.9. Take any driver in the world and have him run the 1/4 mile 20 times. I guarentee there will be plety of times that he will guess he was faster then the time before, but he was actualy slower. BY this, no one can feel a differenc that the weight of a carbon fiber hood gives them. They don't save enough weight. Also, other then the best drivers in the world, typicly no one is consistant enough to even prove that a .1 second difference exists. Thats why I said to run the track and have someone add weight randomly to the car. Guess if the wieght was present or not. Not only will the 1/4 mile times not support that the weight made a consistan impact, but neither will the guessing.
Another issue, is that no one seems to know how much weight they have really saved. Most vendors won't even list it. How the hell can someone pretend they bought a product to save weight when they have no concept of how much they have saved. In a word...Stupidity.
The reality is the most everyone that buys a carbon fiber anything does it for looks. Rather its for themselves or for the judes. Although I think its about the ugliest thing you can do to a car, adding one for appearance sakes is fine. Buying one to gain points is something I can't respect. First of all, why the hell would anyone buy something to put on there car to place better in a competition if they didn't even like it? The answer is they wouldn't unless they have a trailor queen car or are a complete chowder head. Spending money only to place better in a meaningless competiton judged by several idiots who award points based on how much money you have obviously wasted on your car to make it ugly as possible is about the most asinine thing I can think of.
The breakdown:
- a carbon fiber hood is not a noticable or measurable performance gain
- Most people that buy them don't even know how much weight they have saved
- They are for appearence only when it comes to street cars and serve no other purpose. Any other reason is either a lie or BS.
- Most of the time any weight saving gains they present have been totaly counteracted by wheels, stereo equiptment, or ground effects.
So again I say, If they need to waste the money this badly they should just send it to me, I'll fly out, meet them, kick them in the sac, spray paint and bend their hood out of alignment.
These are my views on the subject and I have backed them all up, if you wish to argue the numbers, then prove me wrong by testing it as I have described to do so. If you wish to argue against my reasoning, I will be sure to PM you when I give a s***.
Yes, thats what I said in my last post. Removing 52 pound of rotational mass yielded tha same gains as removing 273 pounds of dead weight. Hence this is why anyone that says they have a carbon fiber ANYTHING for weight savings, yet has a heavy wheel or a subwoofer is totaly full of s*** or just incompetant.mp5jeff said:
not going to bother with this, and ill explain why, before i removed the interior, got the light wheels with drag radials, my car was running around low 14s in the high 90's, then when i went back to the track, my engine was the same, LESS BOOST and a shattered piston/sticking breaks, i managed to run 13s at around 103....now how the **** did i do this(run faster times AND higher trap speeds) if the engine was the same setup with 1 psi less of boost and ****** piston/sticky breaks? because i removed a shitload of weight and around 15lbs of weight per wheel....1sty said:
Keep in mind I have yet to say that removing rotational mass or large amounts of dead weight won't add measurable drops in et times. What I have said is that swapping a hood or removing a factory sub box is neither measurable or noticable.mp5jeff said:
To answer you, you improved in driving or the conditions changed for the better to make power. Even in the SCC article, removing 52 pounds at the wheels and almost 300 else where only yielded .6 seconds off the ets. If you removed even less weight and losted a ton of power, then wouldn't it be impossible to get that time if anything other then you as a driver or the claimate had changed?
You are still looking at yourself and the track considitions as if you are constants, YOU ARE THE LEAST CONSTANT. This is why for someone to prove that the weight losed from a carbon fiber hood, or even 100 pounds made any difference at the track or in perceptions, they would have to experiment as I have outlined it. Anything else does not address the track conditions and the drivers for the variables they are.
Hehe it's all good 1sty, I wanted a discussion on it. And I didn't mean to use it as the only evidence I just was amazed when you said weight made no difference. You make very good points I just think you are a little extreme on the topic but oh well. Good discussion....but lighter weight is still an advantage no matter what you say 
And I mean this all in a good way too. Teh In3rn3t makes everyone seem evil sometimes.
And I mean this all in a good way too. Teh In3rn3t makes everyone seem evil sometimes.btw, i agree with you that by getting a CF hood and nothing else will simply not make your car faster(at least not to the point of buying a hood just for the weight benefits)...that's only 20 lbs at the most right? but if you are a weight ***** like myself it definately makes a difference when only thing left in the car is 1 seat and a shifter/steering wheel...
No doubt, physics are physics.EvilMSP said:but lighter weight is still an advantage no matter what you say
However, we being human, can't preceive the diffence from 50 pounds of weight saving from a 2600 pound car. Nor can we drive consistanly enough to measure it in 1/4 ETs.
Thats fine and makes sense with the runs SCC did. However, does that mean the only removing 100 pounds of non rotational mass will be truely noticable? Or better yet even measurable in numberous 1/4 passes?mp5jeff said:actually i removed more then 52 lbs at the wheels, i said 15 lb PER wheel, 15 x 4 = 60 lol, plus a good 300 or more lbs of dead weight in the car, including PS/ac, no exhaust entire interior, you get the point, etc...
The answer is no (wiggle)
1sty said:
I weighed my stock hood and my WW hood when I put it on. Weight savings was about 30lbs... 45ish vs 15ish.
I only say "ish" because I did not have the most perfect method of weighing the hoods, but I did it several times and came up with right around those numbers.
I agree with Dexter about this, the biggest reason I got my hood was for the vents. The msp underhood is a damn furnace, and with the large vents in the hood it is a lot more under control.
