Final Protege Ignition System Thread
- Thread starter aftershock63
- Start date
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
how do they differ to what we already have?
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
Well Ya'll I got a lot of info to post today and I will try to make it as consice as possible for right now and will go into more detail when I have an extra minute.
I took the leap and installed the ignition system last night and after getting shocked a few time and some trouble shooting we got the car to idel like normal no problem, but I have also come up with a few other issues.
It is on and firing though I mean has anyone even gotten that far?!?!
I have to finsih some work here but will try to get all of you detail around lunch time
I took the leap and installed the ignition system last night and after getting shocked a few time and some trouble shooting we got the car to idel like normal no problem, but I have also come up with a few other issues.
It is on and firing though I mean has anyone even gotten that far?!?!
I have to finsih some work here but will try to get all of you detail around lunch time
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
Well here we go<O
</O
I gathered all the pieces and necessary hardware and started tearing s*** apart. Now this wasn't going to be a full install right away with brackets and shrink tubing, but more like set things in there test fit it and plug it all in.
<O</OThe first thing I ran into was the fact the plug wires that I had purchased were to large around for the top of our spark plug holes so I trimmed backed the extra rubber so that they would fit. So I got that set figured there is no need to continue if I can't get the plugs to connect with the wires.
Next was the wiring of the ignition box, the coil, and the tach adapter. Easy enough, connect the power and ground to the battery, the harness to the ignition box already had the splices in it for the tach adapter, wired up the coil with the proper wires, sniped the trigger wires off the stock coil harnesses and connected those to the box, and then finally connected the plug wires to the coil.
Now that this is all setup, the moment of truth right, exactly. This is the time that you take that deep breath and hope for the best. It was also either stop now or don't look back. I didn't hesitate to turn the key.
Not the best start in the word but at least it was firing somewhat. First error I found in my ways was the tach adapter is 100% not necessary as of yet, so I disconnected that. Tried it again better but still now normal.
Second error that I found was that I tried using the positive wire from the stock harness to send a 12v ignition signal to the box. Didn't seem to work out for me so I connected the wires the needed the 12v to the battery so I could continue testing. This step right here is one that I may have to go back and look apon again because I am not sure if the ECU monitors the load that is going though the pos and neg wires leading to the coil. This is a possibility. Something like that would seem to have Ford written all over it. Don't know for sure yet but I'm not ruling it our either.
Third error: the engine is running now but not properly it is shaking like it is missing a cylinder and the exhaust is defiantly running richer than normal if you can believe that. I grab my temp sensor and measured the temp for each exhaust port (thank god I still have the 4-2-1 headers). Defiantly missing cylinder 1 is reading 100 deg F cooler than the rest. So I think maybe I have the channels backwards on the coil. I switched the plug wires around and now #4 is missing. Well it dawned on me Im a dumb ass and I can admit when I make a mistake and at least this one did not cause any amount of harm that I know of, I had 1-3 and 2-4 on the same channel. For some reason when I was setting everything up I did not even think twice about it for some reason. It should have been a reflex to put 1-4 and 2-3 together on a 4 bigger I don't know how I threw 1-3 and such in there. Like I said Im a dumb ass. It also dawned on me why would the cylinder not fire? I mean the other channel was wired wrong too and it didn't seem to have too much of a problem. This is where those ol'engingeering skills come into play. Path of least resistance right? The wires I am using are not equal length (yet); there is a great difference in length between them. Since this set of wires was originally made for a car with a distributor the difference in impedance between the wires would not matter because the signal would only be trying to go through one wire at a time. The impedance difference between the longest cord (#1) and the shortest (#4) was 40ohms. I figured this to be enough to make a difference also. So I switched the #2 and #4 cords to get the lengths as close as possible. Well after we got all the channels worked out to the right wires in the right places got her to start and she purred like it was a stock ignition.
</OI gathered all the pieces and necessary hardware and started tearing s*** apart. Now this wasn't going to be a full install right away with brackets and shrink tubing, but more like set things in there test fit it and plug it all in.
<O
</OThe first thing I ran into was the fact the plug wires that I had purchased were to large around for the top of our spark plug holes so I trimmed backed the extra rubber so that they would fit. So I got that set figured there is no need to continue if I can't get the plugs to connect with the wires. Next was the wiring of the ignition box, the coil, and the tach adapter. Easy enough, connect the power and ground to the battery, the harness to the ignition box already had the splices in it for the tach adapter, wired up the coil with the proper wires, sniped the trigger wires off the stock coil harnesses and connected those to the box, and then finally connected the plug wires to the coil.
Now that this is all setup, the moment of truth right, exactly. This is the time that you take that deep breath and hope for the best. It was also either stop now or don't look back. I didn't hesitate to turn the key.
Not the best start in the word but at least it was firing somewhat. First error I found in my ways was the tach adapter is 100% not necessary as of yet, so I disconnected that. Tried it again better but still now normal.
Second error that I found was that I tried using the positive wire from the stock harness to send a 12v ignition signal to the box. Didn't seem to work out for me so I connected the wires the needed the 12v to the battery so I could continue testing. This step right here is one that I may have to go back and look apon again because I am not sure if the ECU monitors the load that is going though the pos and neg wires leading to the coil. This is a possibility. Something like that would seem to have Ford written all over it. Don't know for sure yet but I'm not ruling it our either.
Third error: the engine is running now but not properly it is shaking like it is missing a cylinder and the exhaust is defiantly running richer than normal if you can believe that. I grab my temp sensor and measured the temp for each exhaust port (thank god I still have the 4-2-1 headers). Defiantly missing cylinder 1 is reading 100 deg F cooler than the rest. So I think maybe I have the channels backwards on the coil. I switched the plug wires around and now #4 is missing. Well it dawned on me Im a dumb ass and I can admit when I make a mistake and at least this one did not cause any amount of harm that I know of, I had 1-3 and 2-4 on the same channel. For some reason when I was setting everything up I did not even think twice about it for some reason. It should have been a reflex to put 1-4 and 2-3 together on a 4 bigger I don't know how I threw 1-3 and such in there. Like I said Im a dumb ass. It also dawned on me why would the cylinder not fire? I mean the other channel was wired wrong too and it didn't seem to have too much of a problem. This is where those ol'engingeering skills come into play. Path of least resistance right? The wires I am using are not equal length (yet); there is a great difference in length between them. Since this set of wires was originally made for a car with a distributor the difference in impedance between the wires would not matter because the signal would only be trying to go through one wire at a time. The impedance difference between the longest cord (#1) and the shortest (#4) was 40ohms. I figured this to be enough to make a difference also. So I switched the #2 and #4 cords to get the lengths as close as possible. Well after we got all the channels worked out to the right wires in the right places got her to start and she purred like it was a stock ignition.
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
We stepped back and took a deep breath and tried to relax for a moment and enjoy the fact that our hard work got us this far. Just like any job you really only get to enjoy 5 minutes of a 15-minute break and it was back to work. We let it idle for a few minutes and check the temp on the manifold again just to be sure everything was kosher. All cylinders were running within degrees of each other. I re-hooked up the tach adapter just to make sure it was not necessary and did not work either because the other stuff was hooked up wrong. Nope totally not needed (so far). ffice
As a side note the Tach works 100% with out the stock coils or any adapter.
Well now we are to the point were it was time to put the stock ignition back on to make sure it worked and sure enough got me to work today and ran like normal.
But I did encounter a couple of things that I have not had time to or figured out how to solve yet. After we got the car running at idle good we hit the gas and as soon as you got to mid to high rpm's (didn't go and higher than 3-4k and I always run 93 or 94 octane) it would start to knock pretty bad and back fired once. I retarded the timing on the ignition box by 3 degrees (you can read how to do this in the PDF I have the link to on the first page) and it seemed to help but it was still present. Like I said it was getting late midnight by now and my car isn't exactly quite so I did not try to retard it more.
I am going to try and get my hands on a couple of timing lights I know I have at least one, and see how they line up on the crank pulley. I'm not sure what I will do with that data but I'm sure I will deduce something form it. Also one of the problems I think is the ECU doesn't know EXACTLY when the spark is firing. I havent figured out exactly how it tells when to trigger the spark and when not to, and like I said earlier I'm not sure if it measures the load from the power inputs the stock coils. I will have to do some more research and hopefully try again this weekend.
If you have any input of suggestions let me know.
As a side note the Tach works 100% with out the stock coils or any adapter.
Well now we are to the point were it was time to put the stock ignition back on to make sure it worked and sure enough got me to work today and ran like normal.
But I did encounter a couple of things that I have not had time to or figured out how to solve yet. After we got the car running at idle good we hit the gas and as soon as you got to mid to high rpm's (didn't go and higher than 3-4k and I always run 93 or 94 octane) it would start to knock pretty bad and back fired once. I retarded the timing on the ignition box by 3 degrees (you can read how to do this in the PDF I have the link to on the first page) and it seemed to help but it was still present. Like I said it was getting late midnight by now and my car isn't exactly quite so I did not try to retard it more.
I am going to try and get my hands on a couple of timing lights I know I have at least one, and see how they line up on the crank pulley. I'm not sure what I will do with that data but I'm sure I will deduce something form it. Also one of the problems I think is the ECU doesn't know EXACTLY when the spark is firing. I havent figured out exactly how it tells when to trigger the spark and when not to, and like I said earlier I'm not sure if it measures the load from the power inputs the stock coils. I will have to do some more research and hopefully try again this weekend.
If you have any input of suggestions let me know.
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
Matthew said:
you know what is funny this is one of the few threads that I think has a lot of useful data and no one seem interested in it. Maybe if you threw in some drama like my mom is a porn star or something it would draw some attention.
no drama = no attention
Could be the lenght of the actual ignition of the spark, or the wasted spark configuration or the current spark plugs used with the MSD.
I saw that same thing happening once to the Protege5 turbo, It was having heavy backfires and detonation when using an "X" brand of spark plugs. He didnt told me anyway about which sparks was working good with the MSD.
I dont know, I haven tested the MSD in my protege. this is only what Ive seen.
You can test the Electromotive crank trigger/ignition retarder too, its a similar unit, but you can retard timing on it and even to a full retard to spool up a turbo.
I saw that same thing happening once to the Protege5 turbo, It was having heavy backfires and detonation when using an "X" brand of spark plugs. He didnt told me anyway about which sparks was working good with the MSD.
I dont know, I haven tested the MSD in my protege. this is only what Ive seen.
You can test the Electromotive crank trigger/ignition retarder too, its a similar unit, but you can retard timing on it and even to a full retard to spool up a turbo.
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
well I was testing using the Denso IK22's but before the night was over I switch back to the stock NGK's I didn't see much of a difference. I can try it again and pay closer attention
it says that the spark last for 20 deg's of cam rotation. I was thinking it need retarded more. Liek I said it was getting let and i was already tired let alnoe getting shock as many times as I did and forgot to eat dinner. Hopefully I can test a few little things tonight or tomorrow wiht the timing lights and hook everythign back up this weekend.
Do you have a link to that unit?
This particular MSD unit doesn't start retarding the spark till 4000rpm and you can set how much retard you want form 0-10 per 100 rpm.
What I would really like to know is what is the stock ignition timing like? Does it retard at higher rpms? and how much? That could be a very good piece of infomation to know if anyone can find it.
it says that the spark last for 20 deg's of cam rotation. I was thinking it need retarded more. Liek I said it was getting let and i was already tired let alnoe getting shock as many times as I did and forgot to eat dinner. Hopefully I can test a few little things tonight or tomorrow wiht the timing lights and hook everythign back up this weekend.
Do you have a link to that unit?
This particular MSD unit doesn't start retarding the spark till 4000rpm and you can set how much retard you want form 0-10 per 100 rpm.
What I would really like to know is what is the stock ignition timing like? Does it retard at higher rpms? and how much? That could be a very good piece of infomation to know if anyone can find it.
There was one guy here in the forums that has a Turbo Eclipse and was pushing his friend to turbo the Protege5, he had a ECU Logger and catched everything about ignition timing and stuff, Im going to dig inside my suscribed threads, but its been long he abandoned the proyect.
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
well thank you in advance for you extra help I hope you can find it, because it maybe real hard to figure out exactly what the ecu is doing.
THANKS!
THANKS!
aftershock63 said:well thank you in advance for you extra help I hope you can find it, because it maybe real hard to figure out exactly what the ecu is doing.
THANKS!
Here it is, try contacting him, I would like to know also whats the timing on every rpm per load:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45007
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
Ok i checked that out. The data logger seems to be the same one that Nology is selling now. I don't think I can afford one right away but maybe next pay check. If you can find someone that is selling them for a good price let me know. I would need the PDA too by the way.
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
Any updates on what the trigger signal looks like?
deckedoutmp5
Member
- :
- 02 MP5 #3256
also be aware you might not NEED this mod. its ALOT of work, and if you are into hondas or anything, you will note by just changing to an MSD most of them LOSE power... I was in the process of goin to a full stand alone ign like this... but would have to go to e6x... i am, but dont know if i still want to go this route.
this is a fsde 2.0
this is a fsde 2.0
aftershock63
Member
- :
- 2004 G35 Sedan 6mt
I believe that you can do it the way I've been proposing with out going to a full standalone. Now to do an individual coil set up you would have to one but I am still using the stock trigger inputs and keepting it a waste spark system. As for honda owners f them hahahaha civic hahahaha
but seriously is the benifits didn't out way the cost then no one would be installing these units. I am most interested in the greater timing control it give you. I have already had the car idling like stock and I just have to work out the timing for the higher RPM's and I think that we shall be ok.
One of the big benifits with this is that you will be able to set a retard curve. Being able to retard your ignition means that when set right you should be able to run more boost/N20 because there will be a much less chance of detination espeshally if you get it tuned so that the plug doesn't spark until the piston has reach TDC or beyond.
but seriously is the benifits didn't out way the cost then no one would be installing these units. I am most interested in the greater timing control it give you. I have already had the car idling like stock and I just have to work out the timing for the higher RPM's and I think that we shall be ok.
One of the big benifits with this is that you will be able to set a retard curve. Being able to retard your ignition means that when set right you should be able to run more boost/N20 because there will be a much less chance of detination espeshally if you get it tuned so that the plug doesn't spark until the piston has reach TDC or beyond.
GAspeedProtege
Member
- :
- 97 Maxima SE 5spd
Keep up the good work guys, I don't know enough to help, but I sure am learning! Can't wait to the what comes out of this.
