cp-e DeltaCore FMIC intercooler validation paper...

[MUSOM]

So much cooperation. We're like a big family here *hugs*(lurk)

You know I will help you out when I get there. Hell I'm be driving about 12 hours in one day. The S*** I do for you all...(nuts)

(rockon)


Thanks Mike!


Jordan

 

[www.cp-e.com]

So much cooperation. We're like a big family here *hugs*(lurk)

You know I will help you out when I get there. Hell I'm be driving about 12 hours in one day. The S*** I do for you all...(nuts)

Knew I could count on you Dave (wiggle)


Jordan

 

[MS6mike]

jordan you will just have to walk me step by step on all i have to do OK?

 

[www.cp-e.com]

jordan you will just have to walk me step by step on all i have to do OK?

I have no problem with that (smoke)

Give me a call sometime tomorrow when you have a spare moment and I'll explain exactly what to do.


Jordan

 

[MS6mike]

nice! BTW jordan when are you guys getting the FMIC back from the PC?

 

[InlineTwin]

I do have a few more nagging questions. And I hope this is not just irritating, I think it is very cool that a shop such as yours would even bother to respond on a forum like this. You clearly have good talent at your organization.

We are not going to provide dyno results because there are no standardized testing procedures for dynoing a front mount intercooler compared to a top mount.

My first question is where is the 450 HP coming from? Really the stock core could push 450 HP through it, not efficiently but it could. So what is your decision point for the number given? This is in response to the seemingly conflicting marketing decision not to post dyno results, but to post a max HP support of your design.

If someone claims to make a better intercooler than us, we'd like to see legitimate efficiency numbers, not just horsepower.

Agreed. But HP is part of it.

But there are very legitimate reasons for the addition of a FMIC. A top mounted intercooler is placed there as a compromise as it makes packaging easier, and is often cheaper too. But it isn't ideal for making horsepower. Like you said, the highest static pressure is in front of the car, and the intercooler ducting capitalizes on the high pressure, but ducting invariably will reduce the air velocity before it gets to the intercooler. This is just a property of any viscous flow.

Less expensive, probably not in R&D, but in final production cost very likely. And I said the leading edge of the hood (or at least that is what I meant), which is very different situation than the lower bumper area. Has cp-e compared the delta P between the LE of the hood at the intercooler intake point vs. inside the engine compartment below the IC and that of the FMIC location to the area behind the radiator? (with/without the fans on) It is harder to determine, but most interesting is the mass air flow across the intercooler, any comparisons there?

And how do you figure that the TMIC has a low duty cycle? This may be true while puttering around town, but we tried our best to illustrate that exactly the opposite is true if you're laying into the throttle.

That is what I am getting at. Most drivers will inevitably be in a vacuum while driving at speed, which is by far the most activity the car is likely to see. Traffic lights are not generally considered a tree.

However, you do make a very legitimate point in regards to the added throttle lag. Although we contend that there is no added lag (or at least no perceivable lag) I think what we're going to do is log the boost pressure versus rpm for both the TMIC and our FMIC. In fact, we have a customer who has our Standback (which can perform the datalogging) and the stock TMIC, but is upgrading to the FMIC in the next couple weeks. What we can do is log the boost pressure versus rpm for both cases, before and after the swap. That way we can overlay the two graphs to see exactly how much added lag there really is. THAT, should be very interesting!

I look forward to the results.

 

[InlineTwin]

That is what I am getting at. Most drivers will inevitably be in a vacuum while driving at speed, which is by far the most activity the car is likely to see. Traffic lights are not generally considered a tree.

LOL, not that the DRIVER is in a vacuum (happens occasionally)...just heading off any witty responses.

 

[www.cp-e.com]

I do have a few more nagging questions. And I hope this is not just irritating, I think it is very cool that a shop such as yours would even bother to respond on a forum like this. You clearly have good talent at your organization.

Thanks a lot! And I don't mind the questions at all! That's why I'm here, so throw them my way if you've got 'em!

My first question is where is the 450 HP coming from? Really the stock core could push 450 HP through it, not efficiently but it could. So what is your decision point for the number given? This is in response to the seemingly conflicting marketing decision not to post dyno results, but to post a max HP support of your design.

That's a great question. The 450hp rating came from a flow test of the intercooler core. The manufacturer forces air across the core until they measure a 1-psi pressure drop, indicating that the flow was becoming restricted. They then took the airflow rate and calculated how much horsepower (theoretically) could be made.

The truth is that this is a very conservative rating, and it is also somewhat arbitrary in our opinion. There are so many variables that need to be considered: End tank style, passage length, air temperature...none of these things were specified to us when we ordered the core. So when we first started testing, we were a bit skeptical of their rating. But after looking at the data, we think 450hp is still a good estimate of the core's potential.

But you're 100% correct. Technically, there is no true rating of how much horsepower a core will support, since it all comes down to what efficiency you're willing to live with. But judging from our data we're confident that our FMIC design will maintain it's 70%+ efficiency rating well into the 400hp range.

Less expensive, probably not in R&D, but in final production cost very likely. And I said the leading edge of the hood (or at least that is what I meant), which is very different situation than the lower bumper area. Has cp-e compared the delta P between the LE of the hood at the intercooler intake point vs. inside the engine compartment below the IC and that of the FMIC location to the area behind the radiator? (with/without the fans on) It is harder to determine, but most interesting is the mass air flow across the intercooler, any comparisons there?

I wish I had data to throw at you, but I don't. We believe that the static pressure built up in front of the car at speed isn't drastically different between the lower grill area, and the intercooler inlet. You may be right that the presure is slightly higher at the TMIC inlet, but we'd argue that the ducting negates this pressure difference, if it exists at all.

That is what I am getting at. Most drivers will inevitably be in a vacuum while driving at speed, which is by far the most activity the car is likely to see. Traffic lights are not generally considered a tree.

I think we're agreeing, but disagreeing on this point. My point is that once you lay into the throttle, the intercooler is immediately put under a large thermal load. You're saying that 99% of the time, people are just cruising and out of boost, which is true. But people don't usually install performance parts so they can cruise better, they install them in order to make more power, which only comes into play when you mash the throttle. So you're right, if all you do is drive to and from work and never really lay into it, then this wouldn't be a good upgrade for you. But every time you lay into the throttle, that stock top mount is not happy.

LOL, not that the DRIVER is in a vacuum (happens occasionally)...just heading off any witty responses.

I never even considered that, but the mental picture had me laughing out loud (lol2)



Jordan

 

[MS6mike]

well did the data loging, hopefullyi did it right ill be sending the to jordan so he can post them up and make sence of them!

 

[www.cp-e.com]

Michael is the man and got us logs of where his boost threshold is. (rockon)

They are as follows:

These runs were performed in third gear. Michael has a FMIC on reserve, so as soon as he gets it installed he can perform this test again to see where his new boost thresdhold is.

Dadasracecar (I believe) is going to perform a similar test, but his car is stock. So comparing the difference between his car, and Michaels car will be very interesting.


Jordan

 

[www.cp-e.com]

One more thing...


Here are the pics of the prototype intercooler kit. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, the final product will have no visible welds, all pipes will be powdercoated grey, and the bottom plate will be painted black. I will also update with more pics once someone actually installs the final kit.

With the bumper on:

Jordan

 

[Klip]

Pardon this silly question, does the BOV fit with this new piping. More to the point, do you know if the new SU Turbosmart Dual port Bov fit? Or does it's location get moved with the addition of an FMIC?

 

[InlineTwin]

One more thing...

Here are the pics of the prototype intercooler kit. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, the final product will have no visible welds, all pipes will be powdercoated grey, and the bottom plate will be painted black. I will also update with more pics once someone actually installs the final kit.

Jordan

Since you don't mind the questions I do have another. The pictures show square end-tanks with a taper. Why did you not triangulate the tanks? An example of this is the general shape of the stock tanks.

This could easily increase the efficiency by 5-10%. You could have the added benefit of radii in the sheet metal from bends and lower standard work hours. It is easier and faster to bend metal than weld it. (there still would be some welding, just much less of it)

 

[crazyspeed6]

Pardon this silly question, does the BOV fit with this new piping. More to the point, do you know if the new SU Turbosmart Dual port Bov fit? Or does it's location get moved with the addition of an FMIC?

Jordan said that this kit is fit with the HKS flange. Therefore if you want a different BOV you will have to cut and weld in a new flange.

 

[Klip]

Okay, I thought I read that whole post but I missed that part. Hmmmm I already have the SU Turbosmart BOV bought and paid for, If I want this new FMIC I have to but another BOV...................(notcool)

Someone please remind my, why do we modify our cars and spend all this MONEY(crazy)

 

[MS6mike]

Michael is the man and got us logs of where his boost threshold is. (rockon)

They are as follows:

These runs were performed in third gear. Michael has a FMIC on reserve, so as soon as he gets it installed he can perform this test again to see where his new boost thresdhold is.

Dadasracecar (I believe) is going to perform a similar test, but his car is stock. So comparing the difference between his car, and Michaels car will be very interesting.


Jordan

thanx jordan i see i have to shift at 6000rpm i was shifting at 6500rpm!(stoned) LOL

 

[Karma_hunden]

HAHA dumbass.

 

[buit9110]

those pics are just beautiful, mike I envy you! we have to test it out after you install it.

 

[MS6mike]

off cource, it was a plessure meating you in the far far away! nice runs BTW!

 

[jdub260]

I have a question about the piping.

This is the first time I've ever seen a FMIC with the bumper and stuff removed, and I have to say that it seems kinda counter productive to have the piping right below the air intake. This would heat that whole area under the fender and make the intake charge even hotter....wouldn't it?

I looked through the Validation report and even at a cold start the turbo outlet temp is 167F. After running hard it will be over 200F and that will heat that whole area, after the bumper and fender liner are reinstalled that area becomes fairly boxed in.

I wonder if cutting the area behing the fog light and adding a mesh material there wouldn't help things out even more??