Brake Pads for AutoX / Track Days?

[Leigh]

I'm looking at replacing my brake pads soon and was trying to decide what to go with. They'll be used mostly street/autoX but I will probably be doing a handful of DE type events with them as well.

I remember hearing the Carbotech Bobcats were good, and was considering those, but their website says they're not suited to track use. Could I still get away with them for the occasional track day? Other suggestions? I'm not really bothered by noise/dust, but they do need to last a little while for street use (car sees about 25-30k/year).

Also - anyone have a recomendation for a high performance brake fluid? I'm in need of my second system bleed for whatever "OEM" is this year and I'm starting to think the heavy humidity, heat and occasional multiple drivers aren't going to stand for whatever's in there now...(anyone have an opinion on how hard replacing fluid/bleeding the brakes is DIY BTW? I haven't done anything to risk screwing up the car recently... hate to be under quota)

 

[122 Vega]

I guess Greenstuff and Hawk are making pads for the MSP now, since the fronts are 626 pads and the rears are RX-7. I have Bobcats, and they made a huge difference at the autocross this last weekend. I would consider getting a set of the Carbotech Panther Pluses. I am doing a few track days this Fall so I will be getting a set of the PPs soon. they said that you could run them on the street, but they make lots of dust and are noisy.

I can run larger rotors and calipers in STX, but I am doing pretty well in the few events I have been at this year, so I am just going to stick with the Bobcats.

this weekend I had a WRX driver come ask me to change classes, because he wasn't used to second place! Haha.

Britt

 

[proman]

I have hawk hps for the front brakes and they lasted me a for a while with some autox last summer and alot of street use. can't comment on how good it is for the track since i haven't done it myself. Replacing and bleeding the brake fluid systme isn't too bad, just time consuming. If you have a friend that can help out then it would probably be best but if not then just get a set of speedbleeders. they worked out ok for me.

 

[DistantTea]

Do NOT screw around with your braking for track days. Get some real track pads and switch them out... switch your fluid out with something more race friendly and keep the faith of checking them before every run group.

Get a set of front pads from Carbotech, not the bobcats, get the Panther + pads. Whatever you want to use in the rear is fine, but Carbotech will be able to sell you some axxis ultimates for the rear if you want.

It sounds kinda silly at first but realize that the ONLY thing that can break and kill you at a track day are your brakes. Everything else can asplode around you but if you can slow and stop the car you'll be alive.

Save both your pads by switching back and forth for track days. You don't want street pads on the track and you sure in hell don't want track pads on the street (although panther+ will do just fine getting to and from the track, don't leave them on all the time).

So spend the money on real racing front brakes (I highly recommend the Panther+ series from carbotech) and switch out your fluid and make sure everything is bleed well. Very very seriously this could save your life.

For fluids, I recommend ATE Superblue, Motul 600 or at very very least Valvoline Synpower. Bleeding the brakes is damn easy but figure you are going to spend $10 on brake fluid for every track event. Again... you don't want to mess around with your brakes. The valvoline synpower is better than most street fluid and it will do pretty well for a while, but eventually its going to boil and when it does you'll lose braking. SPend the $10 and get some superblue and bleed it out.

 

[Leigh]

Do NOT screw around with your braking for track days. Get some real track pads and switch them out...

I was sort of suspecting that was what I'd have to do, but it doesn't hurt to ask... soonest I'll be heading to the track this year is October, so at least I can worry about it later...

Changing the brake fluid before events it required by tech here, so that much I expected (why I want to be able to do that myself - gets real 'spensive real fast to be swapping brake fluid every month or so). Would the Superblue or 600 be OK for street also? Or are you saying use Synpower on the street and superblue on the track?

And assuming then that I don't have to worry about track use - what's a good street/autox pad? I still need to replace my day-to-day brake pads, and I'd rather not be switching those out every weekend.

 

[gar777]

I have run ATE Super Blue since last Sept when I ran my first track event with the Protege (bought it last Aug) and it's been great. I've changed it once or twice, Speedbleeders are a big help!

I ran the stock pads for one track event and they stunk--too much fade and soft pedal. Never felt good after that. Changed rotors and installed Hawk HP+ pads up front and it's been great (I left the rears stock). Ran one track event and 2 autocrosses so far this year and I love them. They are great on the street too. I do not see any reason/need to change pads at the track and, even if you did, you'd have to worry about bedding them in, changing rotors (?), etc. so I don't think it would be worth it, certainly not for the 3-4 track days I run a year. Worst thing is maybe increased rotor wear but when front rotors are $35 ea. and pads like $60/set (from Mazda Comp), it's only like $150 to change--definitely worth it for the performance. I think I'll get at least a year out of these. The pads do create a fair amount of dust and some squeaking during partial braking, but I've had that with all good pads (Porterfield R4S, for example).

 

[gar777]

Do NOT screw around with your braking for track days. Get some real track pads and switch them out... switch your fluid out with something more race friendly and keep the faith of checking them before every run group.

Hey Distant, you're scaring people out there. The Hawk HP+ and Porterfield R4S (and I'm sure others) are made for exactly that: street use and autocross/light track event use. Here's a quote from the HP Plus description on TireRack.com:

"Hawk HP Plus Sport/Track disc brake pads are designed for sports cars, coupes and sedans for sport driving in autocross, Solo II and many track day applications. Additionally, the Hawk Performance HP Plus Ferro-Carbon compound can take the heat at the track and get you home safely without having to change your brake pads in and out. This compound was designed for the serious street and autocross enthusiast."

For more, see:
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?autoMake=Mazda&autoModel=Protege+ES+2.0&autoYear=2003&autoModClar=&make=Hawk&model=HP+Plus+Race+brake+pads

We're not talking about Showroom Stock Racing here, only some DE (drivers ed) or time trial events. Our stock brakes (rotors + calipers) are EXCELLENT and all you need is a slightly more agressive and heat tolerant pad to made a great braking combo. Our cars aren't very heavy so the stock brakes stop very well.

By the way, I completely agree with you on the ATE Superblue brake fluid--great stuff! It's not expensive. I don't know why anyone would use anything else.

 

[DistantTea]

I disagree. Those pads are for light track duty. The compounds are not made to have the kind of heat that will come from multiple 120mph to 40mph dives. I don't know the track Leigh is going to but the last car doing a HPDE at MidOhio running HP+s faded on the next corner after the straight and went into hard stuff.

Also they don't make either of those pads for the MSP still.

I say if you are going to go to a track day play it safe and get new front race pads, switch them out at each event (or the day before in the case of the Panther +). The possibility of fading out, or wearing through an entire pad in four 30 minute sessions makes it a much safer bet.

BTW when it comes to track safety everyone should be scared about the conditions of their brakes. Can you get away with a totally OEM setup? Sure, if you drive like my grandma. Fluid/Pads/bleed with every session. Better safe than in a wall.

 

[Crack Monkey]

I disagree. Those pads are for light track duty.

I agree with DistantTea. Get some real track pads, like the Carbotech P+. Bed them in a few days before you go to the track - instructions should be in the box - usually involved 5-6 stops from highway speeds then letting them cool overnight. Use street pads (hawk HPS, Axxis Ultimate, etc) on the street and autocross. Use track pads for the track. If the rotors are easy to swap and inexpensive, you can swap them as well (I didn't on my RX-7, as the bearings/hub were part of the rotor, so it was a PITA).

 

[gar777]

Well, it looks like I'm outvoted so i won't argue (not too much, anyway ). It sounds to me like Leigh doesn't track that often, autocrosses, and wants new pads for the street. Sounds like me. I have experience in all 3 venues with the HP+ and they worked well. I did not know that they don't make the MSP application but I know they are adding applications all the time so that may change. Even so, my experience makes me think there might be other pads out there that fit the MSP and would work well in all 3 places. The Porterfield R4S comes to mind. Also, Porterfield will make pretty much any compound on any application so you could, technically, buy the HP+ compound for the MSP from them, but it might be pricey. Might make sense to try their R4S pads first.

I don't know the circumstances about the guy who outdrove his brakes at the HPDE you mentioned but I have no reason to believe that this guy wouldn't have suffered the same outcome with Hawk Blue (full race), Carbotech or even the Stoptech big brake system for that matter. No matter what brakes you use, you need to maintain control of the car at all times, especially at noncompetitive events on the track, like HPDEs. Also, when you don't have runoff room, you should not be testing the limits of your brakes, especially when you are planning to drive your car home.

I think there is a bigger-is-better tendency on the boards, a rush to full-on race-spec items, coilovers on the street, 18s, even 19s, etc. It intimidates the newcomer and makes things sounds much more difficult and dangerous than they need to be. It is not for everybody. Leigh sounds like an experienced autocrosser, who probably has good car control and I think she'd really enjoy her MSP on the track. I drove my car on the track with stock brakes and fluid and, while the performance wasn't always great, it was never unsafe. I think she could try an aggressive street/autocross/light duty track pad and see if that doesn't work for her as it did for me.

I do agree that how hard a track is on brakes varies widely and should be taken into consideration when choosing pads. For many tracks, though, like Lime Rock and most road course configurations at Pocono, the braking is not that great, more like 100 to 70 with a decent cool down period before the next braking zone. also pretty good runoff room where the braking is hard.

Sorry for the long post and congrats to anyone who read this far! I don't want to make this a big fight so I'll quiet down about this but I wanted to share my experience with a solution that might work for Leigh (one pad fits all, not my HP+ since no MSP application yet, but perhaps another). Not everyone who tracks need to use full race pads.

 

[Leigh]

I will probably only be tracking the MSP a few times a year... maybe 2 or 3 times (4 at most), so my priority is a good autocross pad (I take her out almost every weekend to autoX) that is streetable. If it could handle a few practice days at the track that would be ideal, but I can live with swapping out track pads (In the end, I'm very agressive with the brakes so its probably a better idea to do so).

I'm still confused though - which of the pads mentioned are actually being made for the MSP?

 

[122 Vega]

Bobcats.

Britt

 

[SciFiMan]

Hawk HPS - how loud?

I have hawk hps for the front brakes and they lasted me a for a while with some autox last summer and alot of street use....

How loud are the HPS pads? Can you hear them over a normal volume radio, and is it an annoying sound or squeal? I am considering getting the HPS in a couple weeks. I just need better street pads that can take a few SoloII days each year. Thanks!

 

[DistantTea]

Right now the only track pads that fit the front of the MSP I know of are the Panther +... which is nice since they are the best IMO. Do not buy bobcats for the track. They will work ok, but will wear down to nubs by the end of the day (slight exageration) and will have to be deglazed for safe road driving.

Hawk and Porterfield do not make front pads for the MSP (to the best of my knowledge... but I haven't checked in about three months).

 

[Necessity]

I'm sure this has been said already, but just to put some more icing on the cake. I tried to use bobcats at a two day ViR event. They not only glazed over, but wore down at speeds you wouldn't believe!

Do NOT try to use bobcats on the track, you'll be throwing money away.

 

[Crack Monkey]

I think there is a bigger-is-better tendency on the boards, a rush to full-on race-spec items, coilovers on the street, 18s, even 19s, etc. It intimidates the newcomer and makes things sounds much more difficult and dangerous than they need to be. It is not for everybody. Leigh sounds like an experienced autocrosser, who probably has good car control and I think she'd really enjoy her MSP on the track. I drove my car on the track with stock brakes and fluid and, while the performance wasn't always great, it was never unsafe. I think she could try an aggressive street/autocross/light duty track pad and see if that doesn't work for her as it did for me.

I instruct for NASA-VA and used to club race with NASA and the SCCA. I've found there are two types of track-noobs who are hard on brakes.

The first are experienced autocrossers, who know how to use the brakes properly and can quickly get the corner exit speed to need all the brake they have at the next corner. This type of driver will need good track pads, or at a minimum be prepared to swap stock pads mid-weekend.

The second are total noobs, with no experience other than boulevard pimpin'. They drag the brakes too much, creating more hear over a longer period of time. They can be trained out of this and make do with good street pads for an event or two.

As for the push to upgrade equipment - you are correct - the "street bling" crowd takes it to extremes that are just silly. If you look at 95% of the SCCA and NASA club race cars, they make do with stock brake hardware (upgarded pads and fluid only). They also make do with near-stock sized wheels and tires. Obviously, all this is driven by rules (and may not be ideal), but the fact still remains that the guys driving the top ITA and ITS cars will still turn faster laps than 99% of recreational lappers. There is rarely a need to upgrade brakes beyond pads and fluid or tires beyond a stock-size summer tire (Azenis being the tire de jour).

The $1000 it costs for a JDM bling coilover setup gets you 3 track weekends (or 40 autocrosses). I guarantee that you will be a faster and safer driver with the seat-time than you would with the bling.

 

[gar777]

I called Porterfield (http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/) and they recommend their R4S pad for street/autocross and switching to their R4 pad for the track, both available for the MSP. Prices are a bit steep at R4S $89/69 f/r and R4 $149/f (use with R4S at rear). They said once you do the initial bed-in procedure for the R4, you don't have to bed it in again when you change pads at the track. Also, the compounds in these two pads are compatible (carbon kevlar) so you don't have to sand the rotor when you switch (they said this was NOT true for the Hawk pads, which they also carry). From their perspective, this is the ideal setup for cars used for street, autox and track events.

They said they know customers who use both the R4S and Hawk HP+ on the track but they do not recommend it. They think Hawk is being a bit aggressive in advertising the HP+ as a street/autox/light track duty pad. Now Porterfield is a serious racing pad company so I take their word on this. For me, the HP+ has worked well but once I use this set up (prob. after 3 more autox-s and a track event in Nov), I will try the Porterfields with switching for the track. If I don't notice a real difference, I may go back to the Hawks, for price if nothing else.

 

[ARunto]

The $1000 it costs for a JDM bling coilover setup gets you 3 track weekends (or 40 autocrosses). I guarantee that you will be a faster and safer driver with the seat-time than you would with the bling.

I have to agree!!!

on a side note...what size speed bleeders do I need for the MSP calipers?

Thanks,

-Alan

 

[gar777]

on a side note...what size speed bleeders do I need for the MSP calipers?

Thanks,

-Alan

I have an ES so I'm not sure the sizes are the same as for the MSP but if you call or email the guy at http://www.soloperformance.com/ (where I got mine) he should be able to tell you (although the first time one of the ones he sent was the wrong size).

 

[sjdmp5]

They said they know customers who use both the R4S and Hawk HP+ on the track but they do not recommend it. They think Hawk is being a bit aggressive in advertising the HP+ as a street/autox/light track duty pad.

Hawk should be pushing the Hawk Blues for track use.