A question of War

[nmaino]

Smilin Marty: I see your point, but I do not agree with you. You are typing on a computer, not saying what you want to say in "real time"; so you should think about what you are going to write before you write it. MP5Racyer does not do this (that is what I get by reading his posts) and he should. In the end his arguments will hold more water and make better sense. Plus, by telling me that I cannot wave my own flag is very insulting and to have you support him is worse. I have never told anybody to leave this country. I asked SpeedFreak where in this world is a better place to live. I did not tell him to get out of the country. Telling people to "shut up or get the hell out" is not the American way.
Also, I would like you to email me a copy of your paper when you are done. I would like to read about what you have written.

savaho: I hear you. Many people in this world take the US for granted. The world currenty is based on the US dollar, which leads to another question about Saddam. He has switched from the US dollar over to the Euro. This switch could eventually have negative effects for the US economy, something that no president wants to deal with. It could also help explain why France and Germany (both of whom started the Euro) are so reluctent to get into a conflict with a major holder of their Euros.

 

[Smilin Marty]

nmaino: sorry if I misquoted you. In my business that is a serious offense. Wave your flag brother!!

If I don't make sense tonight I will blame it on this Phenegran s*** the doctor gave me yesterday that i've been taking all day today. That stuff is the strongest cold medicine I've ever taken and the first time in years I've felt hi. Damn colds.

Anyway, I've been in bed all day and didn't even drive my car today so I'm a bit bummed.

As far as telling people to get the hell out of the country if they don't like it. I may never say it to anyone directly but I have to admit I've felt it many times. Sometimes I wish I could say it. Sometimes I think I'm all messed up with all that good ole Marine Corps training and putting it to good use when I see someone take the freedom we and prior service members fought so hard for and abuse it. But then I remember that those dumb asses who do nothing all day but criticize the US have every right to do so because it is their right to say whatever they want. It really sucks when this happens but that is just the way it is. so even though I would like to say it out loud I don't think I can.

The world currenty is based on the US dollar, which leads to another question about Saddam. He has switched from the US dollar over to the Euro.

Now, this point about Iraq switching over to the Euro is news to me. It's not something I've ever heard and I admit raises an eyebrow. Maybe you elaborate on this theory and how this may be a reason for us to be there. I am very interested in this one.

 

[nmaino]

Smilin Marty: No problem with this idea. Give me a few days so that I can locate the link and post in on the board. Hope that you are feeling well soon, colds stink!

 

[unwrittenLaw]

i'm in the air force and i have the luxury of knowing things that the masses do not..but there are too many different viewpoints and opinions to argue over every one...its all relative...
but all bull s*** aside, we need to protect our people...

 

[hawkwind101]

America spends trillions in helping other countries yet no one seems to ever thank us for our good deeds. America has been the driving force in this world for what is right and wrong and I'm proud to be an American. Let's start looking out for ourselves and stop aiding every single 3rd world country out there.(including canada eh) It's a no-win situation for us. Look at the french, we liberate them and now they're quick to spit in our face. If you stop to look at the idiots who are quick to protest against war? The majority of them aren't even old enough to remember the heavy price we paid to bring freedom and law and order to the world during WWII. They think that the world is this friendly peace loving place that they cannot comprehend going to war for anything! They've been spoiled by America providing stability in the world. Freedom and security is not free people. You've got to fight for something every now and then.

This is what bothers me about Americans in general. Most of you believe you are the only country in the world that fights for freedom and everybody should be thanking you. If I remember my history correctly, the states were not the only country fighting on the side of the allies. In fact the states came into WWII two years after it started. Canada, Britain and other countries were there way before the States entered the fray. In fact you were the last to enter WWI as well. But you Americans never like to credit anybody else.

I have read some of the history books taught in american schools and the fact is, they are so American centric that Americans aren't learning the full facts and how the other countries were also had pivotal roles in the War. Start reading some history books from other countries.

Another thing that bothers me is that the States have created alot of the problems that they are facing today but not much is said about it. Osama wouldn't be what he is today if not for the training given him by the States, for example.

As for the few posters here that complain about us not respecting the soldiers who go off and fight for their country. It's not that we don't respect the soldiers, I have every respect for them, its the wars that I don't have respect for. I respect the soldiers that were in Vietnam but I don't respect the Vietnam War. The US should not have been there in the first place.

I am not trying to bash Americans but this is why alot of countries consider Americans to be arrogant.

I know us Canadians hardly have a military to speak of but we do try to do our part. It is very hard to spend money on military when the population of Canada is about 30 million compared to the US of over 200 million people.

Yes the Americans are the superpower of the world but they have done as much to hurt the current situation in the world as much as they do to help it.

On an aside, I watched the Bush conference a couple of days ago and I must say it make your president look like an idiot. He rarely gave an answer to the questions asked him and he wasn't very subtle it getting around the answers. For example he wouldn't answer the question about why if they have such strong evidence against Saddam and the UN has access to this evidence, why doesn't the UN feel the same way as the US. Even Britain has backed down somewhat. Most of the time he looked like a deer caught in the headlights.

Once again I am not trying to bash Americans but I am trying to give my view as a non-American.

 

[unwrittenLaw]

sounds like a bash to me...

 

[spoolinmp3]

sounds like a bash to me...

Actaully sounds like hawkwind101 is making an educated statement. Do I love my country? Hell yes but we all have to look at the facts the U.S reminds me of a modern day Imperial England regarding foreign policy. They try to take control over everything and then claim that it is there duty to protect other people and there wellfare ect.....when it reality they could care less. Everything is driven by money and the U.S wants to stay on top so they feel they need to bully the world around in oredr to keep there superpower status. Does the U.S really care about the Iraqi people? Hell no! They just want the damn oil and are willing to sacrifice many innocent lives to do it.
And it does not help that our current leaders do not have a clue regarding foreign policy. Hell Bush at the last conference was an embarrassment to our country. He could not awnser one damn question and he looked like a blundering idiot.
I am a patriotic person but remember dont let patriotism blind reality. People should reserach more politics to get a better grasp of how things work instead of getting a one side slanted view from CNN american news.

 

[unwrittenLaw]

I think he was bashing, but I wouldn't have cared as much if he didn't try and sugar coat it by saying he wasnt... just say it.
I don't agree with everything the government does or represents but, but I also know that our country does more good than bad. I know I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. not everyone in the government is bad and corrupt, after all we elect them...there is good that is done, and some bad..but that is the nature of things...It must be nice to point out everyone's wrongs but then offer no solutions. no government is perfect, but when it comes to protecting our citizens I don't think people should complain about other agendas, ones that they have little knowledge on and are sometimes irrelevant. It seems some people watch a few msnbc reports and do a couple searches on yahoo and then think they know all the ins and outs of current affairs. I'm not claiming to have answers to everyone's bitches/gripes/complaints, but I do know that our people need to be protected.

 

[hawkwind101]

I wasn't bashing. This was in response to some of the earlier posts in this thread. Specifically the ones that tell us to quite complaining and bitching because they are out there dying for the worlds freedom and how they are righting all the wrongs in the world and if it wasn't for the States this world would be a cesspool. It is arrogance like that that other countries perceive from Americans. So I was giving my opinion on why that is. You cannot deny that this is how many countries perceive the US.

 

[hawkwind101]

And it does not help that our current leaders do not have a clue regarding foreign policy. Hell Bush at the last conference was an embarrassment to our country. He could not awnser one damn question and he looked like a blundering idiot.

What really funny about this is that I heard the conference was scripted. They had a list of the reporters who would be asking questions and what those questions were. Even knowing the questions ahead of time he still couldn't answer them.

 

[unwrittenLaw]

I dont deny others' perception of the u.s., and their will always be those who dislike america...although its hard to determine what they don't like about 'america'- its foreign policy, its people, its culture, etc...i believe we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, but frankly I don't really care what others dislike, because many of these people aren't the target of terrorism or other hatred...so its easy for them sit from afar and point out all our flaws...many other countries have the same flaws as the u.s., but we get all the negative attention because we are a large and powerful nation...this dynamic is not easy to handle in a world community with so much hatred for our country and what we stand for...

 

[unwrittenLaw]

Specifically the ones that tell us to quite complaining and bitching because they are out there dying for the worlds freedom and how they are righting all the wrongs in the world

So you are giving grief to those who are willing to die to preserve peace and freedom...that's really grand of you...

Would you serve and die to protect your people, country and way of life?

 

[sleeper_]

dang, man. people, you guys don't even know WHY iraq invaded kuwait. Iraq was suffering from debts b/c of arms use in the iraq-iranian war at which time iraq was supplied weapons from the US, but the US SECRETLY supplied arms to iran. This resulted in iraq running deep into the red.. and when opec decided to raise oil prices iraq was happy making lots of $ off their oil; HOWEVER, kuwait (which was originally part of iraq) increased their oil output effectively reducing iraq's potential income from their oil. Iraq felt this as a stab in the back and they invaded kuwait. and of COURSE the US (5% of the world population consuming 42% of the world's oil) wants "stability" in the middle east region and they have to protect their interests in what is now their "friend" kuwait, and of course stop the wrong doing of iraq in their invasion of kuwait.

ANYHOW,
nmaino, you never got around to your reply to my arguments posted way back, you simply touched upon it saying you'd read it and post back, but you never did.

btw, people. explain how attacking iraq INCREASES americans' homeland security? when it will only increase terrorist groups' resolve to attack the US.

WHAT is the link between iraq and osama bin laden SUCH THAT bush is using 9-11 as a war cry against iraq insisting they're linked. what evidence? (this was brought up by others but i'm, perhaps, putting it slightly differently)

btw savaho: french were essentially on the front line of assault in the world wars, was the US? of course not, so of course when the french were knocked up the US can come in and help. YES the US were there to help them, but the US would've been in a similar situation if the countries were reversed.

ANYHOW, again, i haven't covered everyone's points but i'm not going to spend an hr going through posts and picking out points here and there.

 

[sleeper_]

oh, another note:
what the US conducts is considered "counter-terror" and yet the acts upon themselves is "terror". If you only knew what kind of "COUNTER" terror the US is a part of; take south eastern Turkey for example....
attacks on the kurds supported by a huge flow of US arms. The kind of attrocities on the kurds are well documented... and the US commends Turkey on their success of "counter-terror".

 

[unwrittenLaw]

btw, people. explain how attacking iraq INCREASES americans' homeland security? when it will only increase terrorist groups' resolve to attack the US.

do you think that terrorist won't target our country anyway? iraq has ties to terrorism, maybe its not as easily identifiable for all the pacifists who don't have all the facts, like i said i have the luxury of knowing information that others don't...

and how many times are we goint to here the oil routine? ok everyone stop using every product that contains petroleum...we'll see how things work...

why do people act as though they are so high and mighty, and pretend they don't benefit from what they're countries provide for them...

 

[sleeper_]

aish, you don't get why i brought up the oil thing, i'm not saying this war is about oil.. except that US was buddy with iraq before, but switched buddies to kuwait (a dislikeable trait) and that iraq was trying to protect their interests perhaps as much as when US invades other countries, i'm not explaining clearly, but won't so you can pick this apart as much as you like lol
the little background i gave was the reason why the US invaded iraq the first time; i never said it was this time around.

ANYHOW, you're saying you agree with the reasoning that my enemy's enemy is my friend b/c we have the same enemy. gooood reason there.
and thanks for ignoring all the other stuff i've mentioned, THEY
DO APPLY.

SIDE NOTE:
as agr#7 mentioned in another thread, don't confuse:
-their, they're, there
-to, too, two
and so on b/c i'm sure that you all know that a person doesn't appear educated nor credible when they don't take the time to communicate properly. *hint hint*

 

[unwrittenLaw]

i know its 'their', not 'they're'..it was a typo...wow, great comeback...and i don't want to bother mentioning any of your other 'stuff' because its crap....

 

[sleeper_]

well, it doesn't take much time to correct it, does it?
there just happens to be an EASILY ACCESSIBLE CLICKABLE "edit" button and your reponse isn't great either (what a surprise you'd act in this manner)

ANYHOW:
read my other posts, ones that nmaino have yet to respond to and dismissing my other "stuff" as you say b/c it's "crap" as you say is not very good argumentatively especially when you pick and choose one aspect of an argument that actually works complementary with OTHER points to make the argument, that's why i called it is singular form, not plural; so how does that help you argue your case?

rest of people reading, disregard these stupid last few posts and carry on with the discussion and point/counter-points.

 

[unwrittenLaw]

(what a surprise you'd act in this manner)

what a surprise you said that...

 

[nmaino]

sleeper_: I did answer your question about what to do with Saddam. I'm not sure what else you would want me to say. I never said that anything that you have written was "crap," so please check yourself.