"s"leeper (I'm so sorry): Last I heard, Bill Maher lost his show after 9-11 becasue he made the comment that "it takes alot of guts to highjack a plan and fly it inot a building." Very bold concerdering the feeling of the nation at the time. So base your ideas on whom ever you want to. Finding an "absolute" reason to attack anyone is usually very rare, so where is your agrument there?
A question of War
- Thread starter nmaino
- Start date
he lost his show b/c he made a politically incorrect comment on a show called "politically incorrect" go figure 
so what's the point in bringing this up? doesn't mean he's less right b/c his show got cancelled.
sometimes the truth ain't so pretty, right?
argument against there is no "absolute" reason is that war is not something you simply do b/c you feel like doing. lots of civilians are gonna get killed whether you like it or not. so you say, "only 1 civilian dies, big deal"(exaggerating to make a point) yeah, ok and if that one person or more is your family members? a death is a death is a death.
counter point goes, well saddam is a horrible dictator killing many of his citizens etc.. well that's unfortunate; however, it's not by someone else's hand that they die.
(then you can go into the argument of inaction is just as much action as action itself is and so on to nitpick on the argument)
however, the point remains that US media is bombarding the citizens into submitting to to accept war is the ONLY way to go.
that's wrong.
diplomacy should still be pursued; it is the LESSER evil. <-- oo what a concept
so what's the point in bringing this up? doesn't mean he's less right b/c his show got cancelled.
sometimes the truth ain't so pretty, right?
argument against there is no "absolute" reason is that war is not something you simply do b/c you feel like doing. lots of civilians are gonna get killed whether you like it or not. so you say, "only 1 civilian dies, big deal"(exaggerating to make a point) yeah, ok and if that one person or more is your family members? a death is a death is a death.
counter point goes, well saddam is a horrible dictator killing many of his citizens etc.. well that's unfortunate; however, it's not by someone else's hand that they die.
(then you can go into the argument of inaction is just as much action as action itself is and so on to nitpick on the argument)
however, the point remains that US media is bombarding the citizens into submitting to to accept war is the ONLY way to go.
that's wrong.
diplomacy should still be pursued; it is the LESSER evil. <-- oo what a concept
i did not take it as a personal attack. i think you should reread what i said . people run their mouth about s*** they dont have any idea about. and they allways have better ways to make things right but they never do anything except b**** and complain. i can see it now ten years from now when something bad happens the same fuckers that say we should leave iraq alone are going to say why did you let it happen
BrokeMP3 is on the right track ! I also have been a member of the volunteer military, ready to give my life to defend those of any population who will not. The kind of people who sit around and protest what we do to give you the right to protest us.
This conflict is not about oil, its not really about arms. This is about a ruthless murderer.
Take a moment and look around at your relatives, friends, neighbors and cities. Now just imagine that for an instant someone around you used a deadly weapon against them. How would you feel ? Thats whats been going on in Iraq for years. Should anyone have to live like that ?
Stop and think about the old addige "weapons dont kill people, people kill people." If there was an honest government in Iraq, then we wouldnt have to have a conflict over weapons with Sadaam ! Sadaam is evil and until the rest of the world wakes up and votes for us to oust him than the carrnage against his people will continue.
It is up to people in the military to stand up for world democracy, if we dont get read of Sadaam how long do you think it will be until he funds another strike against any country he desires ?
All countries need to look at the big picture, unfortunately some countries will not agree however who do you think they will call on when what happened to us happens in their country ?
This conflict is not about oil, its not really about arms. This is about a ruthless murderer.
Take a moment and look around at your relatives, friends, neighbors and cities. Now just imagine that for an instant someone around you used a deadly weapon against them. How would you feel ? Thats whats been going on in Iraq for years. Should anyone have to live like that ?
Stop and think about the old addige "weapons dont kill people, people kill people." If there was an honest government in Iraq, then we wouldnt have to have a conflict over weapons with Sadaam ! Sadaam is evil and until the rest of the world wakes up and votes for us to oust him than the carrnage against his people will continue.
It is up to people in the military to stand up for world democracy, if we dont get read of Sadaam how long do you think it will be until he funds another strike against any country he desires ?
All countries need to look at the big picture, unfortunately some countries will not agree however who do you think they will call on when what happened to us happens in their country ?
hey broke MP3 ... what on earth did I say wrong .. I mean why the **** are you so defensive .. I was not debating weather things were right and or wrong ..but i tell you what .. what they did and are still doing IS WRONG .. also in short what i was saying above was to defend bush and say that IF iraq has any ties to afganistan and 9-11 they yess NUKE THE FUCKERS OF THE MAP SO I CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN . or atleast from them .. because you think of it every one boohoos and cries about killing innocent people over there and i say that is the price of war ... also sure lets do it the govenments way and not kill any "innocent" people over there and jsut the bad one .. ok un you know what ... mr millitary ... there are hunderds of thousands of women and children that will loose a father or uncle ect so when they grow up THEY WILL REMEMBER And it will start all over again ... so let me say it a little more clearly .... IF THIS COULD HAPPEN AGAIN THEN DROP THE ****** BOMB or maybe it will take you to loose a close family member in such a way for you to pull your jar head out of your ass and realize why we need to fight for our freedom .. havent you ever read the bible ! i happends there too
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ive suspected this for a long time but now i know, raycer is a ******* moron. in the above paragraph he just contradicted himself. he said that innocent death is the price of war. in that line of thinking he just defended bin laden and what he did on 9/11. what a ******* idiot. killing innocent people is not war. it is murder. that is what our armed forces will be doing if they kill a single innocent man, woman, or child. by the way, atleast 90% of the people in iraq are innocent and have nothing to do with saddam and his politics. they are prisoners in their own country and are just as much victims as the innocent people who died on 9/11.
once we get rid of saddam, who is next? north korea, syria, pakistan? it will never stop. unless, we change the way we think and live. we have to learn that we cannot pursue imperialistic policy and expect everyone to love us. we have to quit trying to control the world and make everyone submit to our culture, government, and our economy. let everyone else determine the way they ought to live and lets see how we can make our piece of the world better.
anyway you look at it, this 'war' is murder. just like vietnam, just like desert storm, just like every other military action we have under taken since the revolutionary war. there is no reason for war, only reasons we make up to justify our own greed and glutony.
once we get rid of saddam, who is next? north korea, syria, pakistan? it will never stop. unless, we change the way we think and live. we have to learn that we cannot pursue imperialistic policy and expect everyone to love us. we have to quit trying to control the world and make everyone submit to our culture, government, and our economy. let everyone else determine the way they ought to live and lets see how we can make our piece of the world better.
anyway you look at it, this 'war' is murder. just like vietnam, just like desert storm, just like every other military action we have under taken since the revolutionary war. there is no reason for war, only reasons we make up to justify our own greed and glutony.
brokemp3, didn't you learn hitting the person that hit you isn't the right thing to do? of course you don't just stand there and let him hit you over andover, but the point is that retaliation itself is violence is not the way to solve things. DO NOT miss the point to what i'm saying, but i fear that you will; please don't meet my expectation.
sleeper, no problem
! I think that you have strong views and good backing. I have to read the other page to make my counter arguments, give me a second. I wish that we could sit down and talk with Saddam, but we have done that, the world has done that and it has gotten us nowhere. Sometimes you just have to stop being quite and pull out your big stick and start swinging. I really think that is the only way that Saddam is ever going to get the message (you cannot produce these weapons, you cannot surpress your people any more) through that thick head of his.
MP5Raycer: What is your problem? You think that we should kill everyone? Where did that come from? I think that you need to cool off and reread your post, maybe it will enlighten you to the stupid theory that you are basing your agruments on. Please; think about what you want to say before you write it down.
jsgolfer: Talk about contradicting yourself! The American revolution was a war that based based on greed and glutony. Do you really think that the revolution was about? The American revolution was based on the idea of free trade, we (the American colonies) wanted more money and we wanted to trade with whom we wanted to, when we wanted too, plain and simple.
There are things in this life that are worth fighting for (well, for most of us) and these things (freedom, peace and a free trade based economic system, just to name a few) do not come without a price. You need to read any US History book, there have been a few (just a few) wars that have been fought for the survival of this country and for YOUR way of life. The United States has its "hands" in so many cookie jars throughout the world that we cannot simply "crawl back into our shells and forget about the rest of the world." Get real and come up with a solution that would actually work in this world.
SpeedFreak: Still waiting to hear where the promised land is.
! I think that you have strong views and good backing. I have to read the other page to make my counter arguments, give me a second. I wish that we could sit down and talk with Saddam, but we have done that, the world has done that and it has gotten us nowhere. Sometimes you just have to stop being quite and pull out your big stick and start swinging. I really think that is the only way that Saddam is ever going to get the message (you cannot produce these weapons, you cannot surpress your people any more) through that thick head of his.MP5Raycer: What is your problem? You think that we should kill everyone? Where did that come from? I think that you need to cool off and reread your post, maybe it will enlighten you to the stupid theory that you are basing your agruments on. Please; think about what you want to say before you write it down.
jsgolfer: Talk about contradicting yourself! The American revolution was a war that based based on greed and glutony. Do you really think that the revolution was about? The American revolution was based on the idea of free trade, we (the American colonies) wanted more money and we wanted to trade with whom we wanted to, when we wanted too, plain and simple.
There are things in this life that are worth fighting for (well, for most of us) and these things (freedom, peace and a free trade based economic system, just to name a few) do not come without a price. You need to read any US History book, there have been a few (just a few) wars that have been fought for the survival of this country and for YOUR way of life. The United States has its "hands" in so many cookie jars throughout the world that we cannot simply "crawl back into our shells and forget about the rest of the world." Get real and come up with a solution that would actually work in this world.
SpeedFreak: Still waiting to hear where the promised land is.
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my friend was asking me if i wanted to walk out of class today with him, which i wouldn't mind except, we were watching Apocolyspe Now(yes, i understand the irony of me not participating in an anti-war demo inorder to watch a movie based during a war).
i missed the big houston rally, but i guess a few smaller pro/anti rallies have been taking place every now and then.
i missed the big houston rally, but i guess a few smaller pro/anti rallies have been taking place every now and then.
i alreadly discussed my views in the first page or two, so please forgive me for not wanting to repeat myself, as it is also too late tonight for my brain to produce anything that hasn't been stated yet.
short and sweet: i am against the "WAR"
clinton dropped bombs on Iraq and not too many ppl complained, and i can't say i'm against a few bombing missions(we still are conducting these), but the state of the world is volatile. missions now, my have even greater repercussions than the Sept 11th attacks. i think that our foreign policy needs to undergo changes that slowly pull our forces out of countries we don't belong in.
since bush has been ok-ed by congress to "engage in war" and send in troops for longer than the 90-day period granted to the president, i do think that if we do begin an assault against Iraq, it will be a war in the constitutional sense. unlike the "war" on drugs and the "war" on terror, we have targeted a nation. one of the specifications of an actual war is that we must declare it upon a nation, not just some group of extremists.
short and sweet: i am against the "WAR"
clinton dropped bombs on Iraq and not too many ppl complained, and i can't say i'm against a few bombing missions(we still are conducting these), but the state of the world is volatile. missions now, my have even greater repercussions than the Sept 11th attacks. i think that our foreign policy needs to undergo changes that slowly pull our forces out of countries we don't belong in.
since bush has been ok-ed by congress to "engage in war" and send in troops for longer than the 90-day period granted to the president, i do think that if we do begin an assault against Iraq, it will be a war in the constitutional sense. unlike the "war" on drugs and the "war" on terror, we have targeted a nation. one of the specifications of an actual war is that we must declare it upon a nation, not just some group of extremists.
nmaino said:
i believe congress has given him the go ahead with Iraq, however there is yet to be an official declaration of war. i'm 99% sure you can only declare an official and legal war on other nations. you can attack and seek other groups and what not, but legally, it is not a war.
all i was saying is that IF there is a chance that saddam or Osama Bin Laden has the capabilities or will to attack us again they yes NUke the fuckers off the map take the damn oil and sell it through out the wolrd for $.25 (cents) a gallon and split the proceeds to help our reall problems like Starving families and since fucknut JsGolfer wants to qoute 2pac then I will as well and say that it is true we got money for war but we cant feed the poor ! .... any way i am just simply trying both ends here and saying that i dont think we should take another chance at another 911 since planes didnt finish there job so nukes and bio-logical weapons there after and GETTING will!! Do you not think that they will not use it against us .. also remember that this is a war that will be no longer faught in another dessert or waist land it will be faught in your cities and towns and neighborhoods ... i think some are blinded since they were not alive when the last time we had strikes on us soil such as Pear Harbor and such .. so i am just thinking for my families sake and protection thats all not trying to start a war here
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Smilin Marty
Member
Well, as I was doing my daily work at my cubicle today the Government Order taker informed me about some order she rec'd from the Hospital ships Mercy and Comfort. Being ex military (USMC) this could only mean one thing. There's no turning back.
I've read every single post here and frankly I was very glad that so many are concerned. However, at this point it's all moot. There is no turning back now.
MP5Raycer: I really liked your first post, and feel your pain.
I find it really odd how so many US Citizens were willing to go fight Osama or anyone who was involved soon after the attacks. Now it seems that many have forgotten 9-11 which is a very big tragedy. I'm not saying that we have forgot the attacks, but it seems to me that many have lost thier fire to make sure this does not happen again.
Why do I say this? because it can and it will. Maybe not by Osama's hand but the people or gov'ts who provided him the arms, finances and personell to do so. This is what Saddam does. I know this because I was there. I've talked to POW's and heard their stories.
I don't wish for our troops to go over there as much as I or any of my friends wanted to go over during Desert Storm. However, here is something that I distinctly remember being told to us in a formation just before we shipped to Saudi. Bush Sr. was the President of the United states, like or not he is our commander in Chief. The decision was already made up to go to war and there is no going back so we can either go ready to take care of business or we can go with timid hearts that will do nothing for us but get us killed. It is not our's to question why, (this of course only applies to those in the military and know what I mean),but ours is only to do or die.
It may not be word for word, but I remember it.
After reading all these post I also felt a little sad that someone can actually want to leave the US especially after being in the military that preserves our way of life.
I love the US and would die for it. I proved it once and I would do it again in half a heartbeat. why? because it gives me satisfaction in knowing that someone like myself from the streets of LA can make a contribution for something and at that time it was all I can give.
Now all that is left is to support our Commander in Chief and his already made up decision to go to war. Its days away and to protest will make the men and women who are over there feel as if they are there for nothing. They're doing something that most people would never be willing to do and that is serve your country in time of war. This is going to be a war, maybe not declared, but a war just the same. People are going to die over their with the memory of 9-11 foremost on thier minds. This time it's not going to be "remember the Alamo" it's going to be "REMEMBER 9-11". So I urge you all to please support our troops as they are in need of it now. You never know, someone you know may be over there.
As for me; OORAH!! DEVIL DOGS!! SEMPER FI!!
Sorry for being so long winded
I've read every single post here and frankly I was very glad that so many are concerned. However, at this point it's all moot. There is no turning back now.
MP5Raycer: I really liked your first post, and feel your pain.
I find it really odd how so many US Citizens were willing to go fight Osama or anyone who was involved soon after the attacks. Now it seems that many have forgotten 9-11 which is a very big tragedy. I'm not saying that we have forgot the attacks, but it seems to me that many have lost thier fire to make sure this does not happen again.
Why do I say this? because it can and it will. Maybe not by Osama's hand but the people or gov'ts who provided him the arms, finances and personell to do so. This is what Saddam does. I know this because I was there. I've talked to POW's and heard their stories.
I don't wish for our troops to go over there as much as I or any of my friends wanted to go over during Desert Storm. However, here is something that I distinctly remember being told to us in a formation just before we shipped to Saudi. Bush Sr. was the President of the United states, like or not he is our commander in Chief. The decision was already made up to go to war and there is no going back so we can either go ready to take care of business or we can go with timid hearts that will do nothing for us but get us killed. It is not our's to question why, (this of course only applies to those in the military and know what I mean),but ours is only to do or die.
It may not be word for word, but I remember it.
After reading all these post I also felt a little sad that someone can actually want to leave the US especially after being in the military that preserves our way of life.
I love the US and would die for it. I proved it once and I would do it again in half a heartbeat. why? because it gives me satisfaction in knowing that someone like myself from the streets of LA can make a contribution for something and at that time it was all I can give.
Now all that is left is to support our Commander in Chief and his already made up decision to go to war. Its days away and to protest will make the men and women who are over there feel as if they are there for nothing. They're doing something that most people would never be willing to do and that is serve your country in time of war. This is going to be a war, maybe not declared, but a war just the same. People are going to die over their with the memory of 9-11 foremost on thier minds. This time it's not going to be "remember the Alamo" it's going to be "REMEMBER 9-11". So I urge you all to please support our troops as they are in need of it now. You never know, someone you know may be over there.
As for me; OORAH!! DEVIL DOGS!! SEMPER FI!!
Sorry for being so long winded
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