A question of War

[OceanPark]

Guys, you know what? I am sick and tired of the Americanism. It is an act of self center and ignorance. Is the life of American worth more than others? How bull s*** when your president is talking about Iraq and other countries are threatening the US? Think about it, who hold more massive weapons than the sum of the world adds up? The USA! They are now invading troops into peoples land, and about to kill some of their citizen and their leader. And now you ask them to disarm, so the State can plant their flag there with zero resistance. Does this sound reasonable to you if you arent American?
The US is threatening Iraq, this is how I see. Dont just believe what CNN says, and what the American government wants you to believe. Try and put yourself in other view and you will see a whole lot more.

When they take over Iraq governments, the oil supply to China and USSR will control by US, so they can continue to lead the world. And of course, the intention behind is way beyond that.

Lastly, I want to rise another point that the wills of many Korean is to reunite the North and South, and so do China and Taiwan. And US are apparently the obstacle between this wills. I came from Asian, and I can tell how many US haters just around there, not to mention those in Middle East.

The hate will only go on if US continue the way they act. No matter how many CIA agents you plant around the world, not matter how many FBI agents you put in every corner of the street. 9-11 will happen again when this war begin.

There is nothing I could do about the US government. But you American could make the different.

Peace

 

[OceanPark]

Smilin Marty: While you are willing to serve yourself to your country. Think about those millions Iraqis who are willing to die for their country too. I think they are satisfied with their country just the same way as you do.
The consequence of this war will cost way more life than the numbers in the 9-11, and thats including the innocent.
Whats the distinction of flying a plane into the world trade center than dropping a bomb into the Iraq soil? Both kill.
CNN spread the word loud over the world, so it burns, but it is no different to the Iraqi, each and every people die in this war will remind the Iraqi to hate. Just like how you say Remember 9-1-1. And they will remember who killed their father, their son, and their friends.
Do you think this is the right solution to prevent 911 to happen again???
Who is the Devil? Who is starting the war? Who is putting rockets to peoples land??? Do you think 911 happen for no reason? Why US were attacked and not Japan, nor the France? Those attackers are not idiot that without a brain, some of them are well educated and even lived in the State. There is reason to drive them to make the attack.

Think twice!!!!

 

[DooMer_MP3]

To all: The pro/anti war demo's are starting to get fired up here in old San Diego, how about in your home towns?

You better believe it in good ole Madison, WI . Very diverse group of people. Lots of tree huggers, lots of war mongers . Great place to live. EXCEPT FOR WINTER

Chris

 

[DooMer_MP3]

I'll just throw in my opinion because I have the first ammendment, and I can. I am against this war. Why? Because *I* believe that this war will certainly invite more attacks on our homeland. It is plain and simple to me. The "terrorists" already hate us for meddling in affairs outside of our borders. And we're ready to go do it again. Can't we just try something different for once? Why not just pull our troops out of places that don't want or need us, or that we have no chance in hell of fixing (cough - Israel!).

Still, I agree Saddam is a horrible man. I think the people of Iraq would be much better without him, but why do we have to be the ones that do it?

If somebody punches me in the face, I will walk away. A) I've never punched anybody and am probably a horrible fighter , B) If I punch them back, they'll just punch me back and so on. Its nice to see that people are starting to wise up to the fact that war is not the answer. The polls show much more opposition these days than they have in previous conflicts.

I have one thing to say to brokemp3 after reading his ridiculous, childish, and flaming posts: If you want some kind of respect for fighting for our rights to free speech, and then REALLY wish you could "shoot" us because you disagree with us, you get no respect from me. I'll give it to those in the service who respect the first ammendment.

Did any body catch Bush's press conference last night? I found it hysterical how many times he had to say (and was probably told to say by his advisors) that war is his last choice, and he prays that he can avoid it. I mean, come on, he's wanted this war since day one.

Well, for the most part, its nice to see a nice clean debate. Just remember, every body is entitled to their opinions, and if you disagree with them, you dont neccesarily have to wish death upon them.

Chris

 

[nmaino]

Good, this post is alive again!

MP5Raycer, you really need to read more books on US history. At the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii was just a teritory, not a state. The only time that US soil was attacked during the Second World War was when a Japanese blimp with a bomb attached to it fell to the ground in Northern California and three civilians were killed when they went to go look at what it was. You could possibly however make the argument that since US warships were attacked, US soil was officially attacked on December 7, 1941. But that is up to you. To the best of my knowlege, the last time that US home soil was attacked was during the War of 1812. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Smilin Marty: Thank you. You post was fantastic and I think that you a wize man. You do not need to say that you are sorry for writing what is on your mind. I think, no, I know that you are right; people need to realize that this conflict is going to happen. So, instead of complaining that the US should not be "over there" why don't you start to use that energy and support our troops! They are over there not because they want to be, they are over there because it is their job. So stop treating them like they had/have a choice in the matter.

DooMer_MP3: If war is not the answer, what is? Saddam has been given twelve years to change his path, he has not done this. Do you think by pulling troops out and by letting the inspections go on longer (for two to four months) is going to suddenly change twelve years of thought? If you were the President, what would you do at this moment?

OceanPark: Here in San Diego, the loudest voice supporting the ousting of Saddam have been the Iraqi community. How do you explain that?

 

[OceanPark]

Nmaino: I am not Saddam supporter. I am just trying view this issue from the Iraqis point of view. And how do you explain that the American citizens are protesting for no war? There is always opposite opinion.
And even someone here has mentioned that he is upset of the US government, and planning to leave. It goes both ways.

Anyhow, you have avoided my questions too. I am not saying Saddam is good or the US is bad. If we are all equal, why US can attack else country by saying that: We THINK they are making bombs, and since Saddam face look alike to Bin Laden. So we have evidence to BELIEVE that they are planning to attack us. We shall not take the risk,
And therefore we have to fire ROCKETS to them before they fire a single bullet to us.

Did any body catch Bush's press conference last night? I found it hysterical how many times he had to say (and was probably told to say by his advisors) that war is his last choice, and he prays that he can avoid it. I mean, come on, he's wanted this war since day one.

LOL~ strongly agreed!

 

[nmaino]

OceanPark: I never said that you were a Saddam supporter. To prevent a full war, we must take steps. One of these steps is collecting information on Saddam and his government. The idea of sitting around and doing nothing is not going to avoid the problem. That seems to be the typical and accepted method today; "ignore it and it will go away." Well, Saddam is not going away, he is sitting in Iraq building bombs and gas that either Iraq or terrorist groups (that he supports) will use against the United States, Canada, England, the list oges on and on. The United States is trying to prevent this from happening. The only way to do this is by force (Saddam has made it painfully clear that he does not understand any other method). The person who stated that he is going to move has not responed to two of my replies about finding another country that is a grand as the USA. He must have realized what a stupid comment it was. Most of the protests that I have seen are based on the wrong ideas. Many people think that we want Saddams oil. That is wrong, Saddam makes no money off of his oil, he is suppose to sell or trade it for food. What the US has been arguing is that Saddam is in violation of Article 1441, he has not disarmend and must be dealt with. Very simple. We are not equall with Iraq. How could you event think to compare the two?

 

[OceanPark]

Nmaino: We are not sitting and do nothing. The United Nations in Iraq are investigating for violated weapons, but United State still insists to attack Iraq regardless of the report. You are brainwashed by the US media already. You just believe what has told on the TV, and is there hardcore evidence that proof Iraq have direct relationship with terrorist group? And you think your government would stupid enough to tell his fellows citizen that everything behind this war is OIL? Yes, Iraqs oil are being exchanged for food and supply only, but when Saddams government is corrupted under US hand, this rule will eliminate and the oil will become money trade again.

And you know what? If the war is going to take place, I will not feel sorry this time when US are being attack again. Rather than blaming the terrorist group, your government is the murder behind all this sense. You killed their man, so they will come and kill yours.

Open your blinded eyes.

p.s: tell me how are you different than Iraqi? they aren't human???? Your life value more?

 

[nmaino]

OceanPark: Sorry that you feel that way. I would think twice before saying that you are not going to be sorry about people being killed. You think that the USA is corrupting the Iraqi government, and you say that I'm brainwashed. You have issues with yourself that I think you should address before you hurt yourself and possibly others.

 

[MP5Raycer]

um no nmaino .. i think we need to drop you off over there and leave you with the rest of the towel heads before we drop the bomb .... you are so ****** ignorant and talk s*** abotu how you know so much and now one else does .. please you think you are the only one that has any knowledge on this matter ... do us a fav and take off that american flag you dont deserve the right to wave it !!!!

 

[Smilin Marty]

Hey all, just droping in to read the latest on what I think is the hot thread of the day. nmaino and Ocean, you guys ought to be respected if for nothing else but for your convictions. Never quit!! I want to let you guys know I have decided to take this topic public by writing a very lengthy essay. Of course, I wanted you ask you two if you mind if I use some quotes of yours. MP5raycer included. This is an extra credit for my philosophy class so please do not misinterpret my message, my main goal is to spark interst in these type of debates without flaming. as if, ha! jk, dont flame me for that. any way, I will let you know when I'm done.

back to the subject at hand, my next post is in response to Oceanparks question I'll post that seperately only because it think it deserves a very lengthy reply.

 

[MP5Raycer]

and ocean .. dont even get me started .. you ******* moron where were you on sept 11th they started this s*** and YES SADDAM DOES HAVE TIES AND CONNECTIONS TO THAT DAY YOU ******* RETARD !!!!!!!! so they started it and we will finish them .. and if othr people die over there so be it since that will be one less kid growing up planning future attacks because we killed there uncle or dad or brother

 

[MP5Raycer]

Marty go for it budd .no problem here man ... i hope it helps you out man :O)

 

[Smilin Marty]

This is in response to Doomer's question below.

The "terrorists" already hate us for meddling in affairs outside of our borders. And we're ready to go do it again. Can't we just try something different for once?

Are you sure that is why the terrorist hate us? I don't believe that is the reason why and am surprised that someone who appears educated can make a claim as general and vague as that. What I do believe is that they are taught from an early age to hate Americans. Im definitely not saying that all people of Arabic or Muslim cultures or religion are teaching that America is evil and should be cut off like you would cut off the arm of a leper. However, I do believe there are some Muslim sects that focus on the destruction of the evil United States of America. This indeed is a fact as has been confirmed by honest Muslims in the United States. You need proof? Investigate the honest Arab Americans in Dearborn Michigan that are against Saddam. They can tell you the reason those bad apples hate us is because they dont know any better than to believe what theyve been told since birth. America = Evil. Destroy the evil means that they have to destroy America.
As far as doing it again, when did we do it the first time? Desert Storm? My friend, may I call you friend? Let me enlighten you on some facts that I know to be true and you can investigate for yourself. On Aug.2 1990 Saddam Hussein invaded a small unknown country called Iraq. Kuwait asked for help in removing Iraq from within the Kuwaiti borders. I was there, I was on the front lines and one of the first men across that border when the 100 hour war turned to ground troops. For those who question, I was with CSSD-17(Suicide 17) in support of 2/7 (and 1/7 if memory serves me) and 11marines (artillery). OUR position was directly behind the grunts, 7th Marines. If you are a grunt, you know that is about 2-3 miles from the actual bullets. In addition, my job was to rescue broken down vehicles from the front I was the lead wrecker in the forward most support unit in Desert Storm. Consequently, I know what we did there and why we did it. We were there to remove Saddam and his troops from Kuwait. Many people ask why we didn't finish the job the first time and the answer to that is because we did finish the job the first time. Of course we all (Coalition forces) would of have loved to go into deep Iraq and cut off the head of the fish but that was not our mission. Our elected officials and UN clearly put an objective before us and we accomplished it with minimal and historical results.
The conflict that is about to take place is a result of the leash around Saddams neck that we put there so he does not try that again. Guess what? He is doing it again, not necessarily invading any countries but doing the very things, the UN itself has instructed the country of Iraq not to do. So, no, it is NOT doing the same thing, so the answer to you question, Cant we just try something different for once? Well, we are, and actually we have done more than that, we have given him 12 years worth of chances off and on. Now this brings up the next question of How do we know they have any missiles? I must remind you that although he was unsuccessful in convincing the UN that we had reason to go, Mr. Colin Powell, had information that Iraq was creating missiles. Now the UN is skeptical but there is no denying the proof itself it was there as there is undoubtedly other evidence that is highly confidential even to the UN. You dont honestly believe were going to give that kind of intel to the UN, do you?

I am definitely someone who loves to hear himself talk and when you give me a chance this is what you get. hope i didn't bore you all, and hope we continue this thread because it is important to everyone not just Americans.

 

[savaho]

Hi guys, Ed ligut, tuba. Just wanted to add my 2 cents which is like $1,000 in worthless canadian money. Anyways, I think we should pull all of our troops out of these POS countries that don't want us there and let them fight amongst their neighbors when they invade each other and maybe they'll obliterate themselves from their stupidity. America spends trillions in helping other countries yet no one seems to ever thank us for our good deeds. America has been the driving force in this world for what is right and wrong and I'm proud to be an American. Let's start looking out for ourselves and stop aiding every single 3rd world country out there.(including canada eh) It's a no-win situation for us. Look at the french, we liberate them and now they're quick to spit in our face. If you stop to look at the idiots who are quick to protest against war? The majority of them aren't even old enough to remember the heavy price we paid to bring freedom and law and order to the world during WWII. They think that the world is this friendly peace loving place that they cannot comprehend going to war for anything! They've been spoiled by America providing stability in the world. Freedom and security is not free people. You've got to fight for something every now and then.

 

[Smilin Marty]

Savaho,
Personally, I have to agree with some of what you say like the part of ingratitude. However, because the US is a superpower that is considered by the mojority of the world as a big brother of sorts, we are obligated to help those so called "POS" counties in their times of need. Even if it means we don't even get a thank you. Kinda like when an older sibling defends a younger one, in the end the younger one would probably say something like, "I coulda taken care of that myself, I didn't need your help!!" Forgetting that they were crying like a little chihuahua the whole time they were being picked on. Nevertheless, the older sibling just smirks and says "whatever" and would do it again even if he didn't like it. Now, in this case it's not so much a small country that is asking for our help, as much as it is like the big bully down the street going around pointing his louisville slugger at everyone and mostly at you all the while foaming at the mouth. This big bully needs to be put down before he hurts someone and you've tried talking to him for 12 years trying to convince him to at least but the bat down, but he refuses everytime. He tells you that you own a bat so why can't he? Well, first of all, you are not foaming at the mouth and threating to use it are you. So now your faced with a situation you can not avoid and are convince that in about 3 seconds he means to unleash a wailing on your ass. What do you do?

 

[nmaino]

Smilin Marty: You can use whatever I have written. I like your response and think that you are very correct. Saddam has had twelve years to clean up his act, he has not and has to be dealt with. Thank you (again); that is all I can say.

MP5Racyer: There is a old saying that goes like this, "it is better to be thought stupid then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Well, this applies perfectly to you (except you would have to exchange "open your mouth" to "write your mind" in this context). This has never been a question about who is smarter, or who has the better ideas. And MP5Raycer, as an American I have the right to proudly wave our Beautiful Flag!

Savaho: New to this thread, welcome! America has spent a lot of money helping other countries, but I think that whether the rest of thw world will omit it or not, they expect this aid from us. America is too involved in world events to simply leave. This will never happen (unless the USA falls from grace like England did during the Second World War). So I think that we should look at other options. You are right however in your statement about peace. There are things that have to be fought for, and peace is one of them.

 

[Smilin Marty]

mp5raycer & nmaino: Thank for the permission.

nmaino: give him a break will ya? yes he has apparent anger issues but I would also like to believe that his heart is in the right place but without the words to express himself as well as he would like. So in his defense, and not that he really needs any cause i know he can defend himself, he is but one of many who feel passionately about this subject. Let us not forget he is also an American who loves America. Unless I misinterpreted his intent, I would have to say that he, like I and even you mentioned once that if you don't like the US then please leave and find another country that will offer you the freedom(s) we take for granted here. I don't want to quote the constitution because I would really screw it up but we have to remember that the right to express your opinion is a right that we have earned by the blood of those who fought for it as early as the Revolutionary war. Unfortunately, it doesn't help when someone makes remarks that aren't thought out and appear ignorant. To me this is a sign of frustration and that is what the US is experiencing right now. We're so frustrated that we end up arguing amonst ourselves and we dig a hole for ourselves that weh can't get out of. Then you end up with words that you wish you wouldn't of said but you can admit that because it would make you appear weak. In a sense this is what is happening to Bush. Yes, the biggest reason is Saddam, but if we were to pull back now with no results, ie. proof of arms and Saddam stepping down, we would appear as a big bully with nothing but a big mouth.

Damn, don't get me going now. Not flaming just firing on all cylinders now buddy.

 

[savaho]

nmaino- one just gets tired hearing how arrogant we are, or how we want to kill thousands of innocent people for oil, how we love to bully countries for the hell of it, or it's a war against islam, how we should be the first ones to give up our wmds if we want them to. I say let's use the " I told you so" policy and pull out of these countries we help defend and see what happens in a few years. S. Korea for example is a joke. Those people are just as bad as the french. That's gratitude for ya. What about the phillipines. sheesh. There's just too many countries that are more than happy to take our aid but when it comes to down to it, do they really have our backs?

 

[charles]

SpeedFreak, I know exactly what your job is. 31S right. I also know you didn't see s***. All you did was relay satalite uplinks and down links. You follow important people around so they will always have a phone line anywhere in the world. You didn't see anything special. Don't lie to these people.

yup, and I have family who lived in communist europe (my mom in fact)... what you might see on the satellites or whatever ain't nothin....

and remember how everybody complained about how sanctions against iraq are killing innocent people, especially children? THese same people are turning around and not advocating the way to help them. Saddam DOES have to be controlled... this way we can control him while doing our best to only attack military targets...

anyways I misunderstood what was happening and didn't really follow why we chose to go after Iraq at this time (wasn't it last summer?) ... but regardless, here we are now, and I don't think there is any backing out.

And yes we are worried about Korea. It's just "preferable" to not "deal" with both at the same time...we have the resources, but still.... besides, Hussein has been known to use his big ol' weapons in the past... so far Kim Jong Il hasn't shown that... so it's kinda a tossup...