What to buy? MS3 or Civic si

[wolfpacker]

I just took delivery of a Black MS3 GT yesterday. I was all set to get an Si, then I read the recent Pocket Rocket head to head (Car and Driver?) and decided I best test drive the MS3 first. After the test drive, it was a no brainer to me. Only concern was reliability difference, but the fun factor more than makes up for it.

 

[I vtec do you?]

Before reading my post, understand this - I'm an immature 18 year old male who owns a 2007 Civic SI sedan. WIth that said..

Go post this same question on www.8thcivic.com and see what results you get? Posting this question here was a bad idea, the replies are SO biased it's not even funny.

To start with.. I don't 'dislike' the MS3. In fact, I was all set to get a regular mazda3 because I think that car is amazing for the price, but my parents let me get an SI so I took that instead. The MS3 came up, but it was decided by me and my parents that an 18 year old shouldn't be driving a 263 horsepower car. So it can be concluded that I do in fact LOVE the MS3.

If you just want power and IMO a more refined interior, get the MS3. I'm dissappointed that Honda is ~65 HP and ~100 lbs of torque down on the MS3 for such a small gap in price. BUT.. the new SIs are equipped with the K20Z3 motor. NO ONE argue me on this.. the K series are without a doubt the best 4 banger motors EVER made. With 0 engine management (no tuning), NOTHING (internals) besides a turbo kit, bigger fuel injectors, uprgraded fuel rail and a few other miniscule things (again, motor NOT built up) a company has this motor running at 500+ WHP, and it most likely would of made 600 WHP but the clutch began slipping. This car has also been tracked extensively and is running high 11s, no engine failures yet.

Is the MS3 more fun to drive? Yes.. and no. I test drove the MS3 and the thing is quite a ******* ride. Pinning the gas and just 'going' is amazing. However, the SI is more fun for me. You and I are different people, so it might not be the same. At about 5800 RPMs the SI's motor switches into Vtec, and the motor grows substantially louder, and you begin moving. It's such an amazing feeling.. all the way to 8200 RPMs. I have the Hondata reflash on my and I now take it up to about 8500 (cutoff at 8600). Seeing the LED shift light blinking in your face is something you never want to stop inducing.

The SI has great handling, so does the MS3. I won't even touch on that. The brakes in the SI could be better, the MS3 has great brakes.

Now, the exterior.. I HATE the hatch. If the MS3 had been made a sedan as well, then I would have stopped at nothing to get it. I just think it's ugly. I love the way my sedan looks, however. And it will look incredible once I get the mugen lip kit on it + mugen spoiler. The interiors are love / hate. I love the SI interior. I think the dash is quite awesome. THe MS3 has probably the greatest interior of an economy car, so I'm not going to bash on that one..

Now one more time.. back to power. If all you want is a powerful motor, you're wasting your time with the MS3 and the SI. Get an ion redline / cobalt SS for ~17k brand new. They put down about ~225 WHP. They can easily achieve ~280+ WHP for under 20k. I beleive the MS3 dynos at ~230 ish. I know some dyno at ~250, but that's maybe on the first run and in ideal conditions since this thing is subject to wicked heat soak. In my SI, I dynoed at 189.x WHP. Since then I've added an Injen CAI, Buddy Club race header, Apexi N1 exhaust, Hondata reflash, TB spacer, Hondata IMG, and the NST pully set. I now SHOULD dyno (based on what others have gotten, haven't dynoed mine yet) be around 220-225ish WHP.

There is a black MS3 that I've seen a few times. A few days ago I ran into it on the highway, and from 55-80 MPH, it was pretty even. After shifting into 4th I started pulling on him super gently. I'm not sure if he started letting off, or didn't know to shift before redline, but when I started pulling, I backed off and he sped off. Considering I got my SI for a steal (19,700 + 1400 for a trade-in worth less than $500 most likely), I would say what I have put into the car hasn't been too bad..

Anyways, test drive both and decide. If you want a fun ride, you can't go wrong either way.

 

[kristina_kim]

Before reading my post, understand this - I'm an immature 18 year old male who owns a 2007 Civic SI sedan. WIth that said..

Go post this same question on www.8thcivic.com and see what results you get? Posting this question here was a bad idea, the replies are SO biased it's not even funny.

To start with.. I don't 'dislike' the MS3. In fact, I was all set to get a regular mazda3 because I think that car is amazing for the price, but my parents let me get an SI so I took that instead. The MS3 came up, but it was decided by me and my parents that an 18 year old shouldn't be driving a 263 horsepower car. So it can be concluded that I do in fact LOVE the MS3.

If you just want power and IMO a more refined interior, get the MS3. I'm dissappointed that Honda is ~65 HP and ~100 lbs of torque down on the MS3 for such a small gap in price. BUT.. the new SIs are equipped with the K20Z3 motor. NO ONE argue me on this.. the K series are without a doubt the best 4 banger motors EVER made. With 0 engine management (no tuning), NOTHING (internals) besides a turbo kit, bigger fuel injectors, uprgraded fuel rail and a few other miniscule things (again, motor NOT built up) a company has this motor running at 500+ WHP, and it most likely would of made 600 WHP but the clutch began slipping. This car has also been tracked extensively and is running high 11s, no engine failures yet.

Is the MS3 more fun to drive? Yes.. and no. I test drove the MS3 and the thing is quite a ******* ride. Pinning the gas and just 'going' is amazing. However, the SI is more fun for me. You and I are different people, so it might not be the same. At about 5800 RPMs the SI's motor switches into Vtec, and the motor grows substantially louder, and you begin moving. It's such an amazing feeling.. all the way to 8200 RPMs. I have the Hondata reflash on my and I now take it up to about 8500 (cutoff at 8600). Seeing the LED shift light blinking in your face is something you never want to stop inducing.

The SI has great handling, so does the MS3. I won't even touch on that. The brakes in the SI could be better, the MS3 has great brakes.

Now, the exterior.. I HATE the hatch. If the MS3 had been made a sedan as well, then I would have stopped at nothing to get it. I just think it's ugly. I love the way my sedan looks, however. And it will look incredible once I get the mugen lip kit on it + mugen spoiler. The interiors are love / hate. I love the SI interior. I think the dash is quite awesome. THe MS3 has probably the greatest interior of an economy car, so I'm not going to bash on that one..

Now one more time.. back to power. If all you want is a powerful motor, you're wasting your time with the MS3 and the SI. Get an ion redline / cobalt SS for ~17k brand new. They put down about ~225 WHP. They can easily achieve ~280+ WHP for under 20k. I beleive the MS3 dynos at ~230 ish. I know some dyno at ~250, but that's maybe on the first run and in ideal conditions since this thing is subject to wicked heat soak. In my SI, I dynoed at 189.x WHP. Since then I've added an Injen CAI, Buddy Club race header, Apexi N1 exhaust, Hondata reflash, TB spacer, Hondata IMG, and the NST pully set. I now SHOULD dyno (based on what others have gotten, haven't dynoed mine yet) be around 220-225ish WHP.

There is a black MS3 that I've seen a few times. A few days ago I ran into it on the highway, and from 55-80 MPH, it was pretty even. After shifting into 4th I started pulling on him super gently. I'm not sure if he started letting off, or didn't know to shift before redline, but when I started pulling, I backed off and he sped off. Considering I got my SI for a steal (19,700 + 1400 for a trade-in worth less than $500 most likely), I would say what I have put into the car hasn't been too bad..

Anyways, test drive both and decide. If you want a fun ride, you can't go wrong either way.

Very good post...here's my input

I have owned both cars actually. I got an '06 SI coupe which was later totalled when a dump truck hit me. Wanting change, I picked up an MS3.

1. The SI interior is love/hate. If you hate it, then DO NOT buy this car. Because you will be using this dash every day that you drive it, and after some time it gets really really annoying. I thought I could live with the interior but I grew really tired of waiting for the speedo to tell me how fast I was going. For realistic driving you can't wait half a second for the computer to update your speed. The person should not have to adapt to the car - the car should be built for the person.

2. You have to consider how much you will be driving this car. The MS3 is a better daily driver all-around. There is more cargo room, torque is there for the freeway/highway, and the cabin is roomier and more functional. Driving the SI can be tiring after a while - the engine speed requires constant, and I mean constant, attention. I know iVTEC improves low end torque and makes the mid-range beefier, but frequent shifting is still necessary to squeeze that power out. Waiting for VTEC past 6k RPM is both a blessing and a bane - it's exciting and makes for fun driving, but waiting for power can be tiring during extended daily driving. The best way to think of it is this - when you drive an automatic, and you floor it and the engine hesitates before it downshifts, sometimes waiting a few seconds to respond - does it annoy you? that reason alone is why many choose a manual transmission, but without torque it becomes fruitless. You STILL have to wait for engine power when it should happen the MOMENT you change gears. I loved driving my SI hard, and VTEC is exciting but during daily driving it can be a pain in the ass constantly shifting, and revving the engine.

3. The MS3 doesn't feel as sporty and agile as the SI. It feels more planted, deliberate, and weighted in all of its motions. Granted, it does have tremendous grip and little body roll, as well as precise steering, but the car is just too big and heavy. The SI just feels faster through turns and the steering, though vague, requires much less effort.

All in all it boils down to this: the SI is by far the better sports car, but it sacrifices practicality, driver comfort, ergonomics, and daily drivability for agility and (this might be important to you) FUN TO DRIVE. The MS3 is the opposite - it is a supremely well-composed commuter that works well in all conditions, but the sporty flavor of the car just isn't as immediate as in the SI. It might boast bigger numbers and better equipment, but the intangibles is really where this car is lacking.

 

[Speed3girl]

Right they both have their pros and cons. I hate the visability out of the Si. But the feel of how the cars drives is nice. But the Speed 3 is super easy and fun to drive. I am not sad by any means with our Speed 3 purchase.
However now we are selling our Si.

 

[SPEED305]

out of the box, the MS3 is the better vehicle. the only thing in question is to me is long term reliability. you just cant find a better vehicle for the price.

 

[Donas64]

out of the box, the MS3 is the better vehicle. the only thing in question is to me is long term reliability. you just cant find a better vehicle for the price.

Pretty much. longterm reliability will determien this cars legacy. It has all the muscle of the SRT-4 neon but with 30x more refinement. The SRT-4 had and has such a great following. I hope the MS3 will in time build a legacy of its own.

 

[I vtec do you?]

Just to follow up my post..

Yes, the lack of torque is by far the most annoying thing on this car. In fact, if you DON'T like shifting as much as I do, then this car is not for you. Yes, it requires a lot of shifts. And yes, it requires you to redline it for any sort of speed. It's the exact opposite of the MS3, where you have to shift a bit before the redline or your power drops off. To me, this is a plus for the SI, but a lot of people despise having to redline it for power.

I also agree that it's annoying that the speedometer isn't instantaneous and you have to wait a second. However, I've grown so used to it that regular speedometers throw me off now. All in all though, I very much like the dash.

Also, people like to bring up reliability a lot (I'm one of those staunch MS3 supporters on the 8thcivic forums because I love the car). I really don't think either car has to worry much. Yes, the MS3 has had a few problems, arguably the biggest one being the motor mounts.

The SI has been no dream either though. All the quality I heard about hondas before I got my car seems to have been a lie. This car has been a rattle-box since day one, the speakers randomly start buzzing even after they've been fixed.. the interior plastic is cheap and scratches when looked at wrong.

I'm very excited to see what comes of my motor though (drive2). Hoping 350 WHP and completely perfect driveability won't be a problem.

 

[SwampAss]

I drove both. The Si at WOT made sounds that almost made me buy the car before testing the MS3. That motor simply wails. Almost indy car like in some small way. I think the 2 door Si coupe looks better than the MS3. I did not like the dash lay out. The seats were nice, the shifter was less vague than the MS3 and overall felt a bit tighter.
I decided on the MS3 because it was more practical, I could drive it in a lazier fashion and in all honesty, if I was going to buy premium gas, I might as well have the turbo to go along with it. Plus, I am hoping for a serious bump in power once the access port/piggy backs are finished and come down a tad in price. 197 hp is sweet, 300 plus is sweeter.(birthday)

 

[Betelgeuse]

If you're going to compare these two vehicles, do it stock for stock. If you want to start talking mods, the ms3 will win hands down. All I have is an intake and the car already feels different. With a tune and dp, even on the stock turbo, 300 whp should be easy.

And I'll argue with whomever said Honda makes the best 4-bangers. Sorry but torqueless motors don't appeal to me. I know I'm being blunt but I'd take my Disi turbo over any K-series anyday (just my opinion).

 

[Donas64]

If you're going to compare these two vehicles, do it stock for stock. If you want to start talking mods, the ms3 will win hands down. All I have is an intake and the car already feels different. With a tune and dp, even on the stock turbo, 300 whp should be easy.

And I'll argue with whomever said Honda makes the best 4-bangers. Sorry but torqueless motors don't appeal to me. I know I'm being blunt but I'd take my Disi turbo over any K-series anyday (just my opinion).

Torque FTW!

I'm sorry but I can't stand revving a motor to high heaven in day to day driving. Maybe if I was at a track but torque is useful on the road, on the track, wherever you happen to be.


My beef is with turbos, quite frankly: I just don't trust em! Too much stuff to break.

I like torquey 4 cylinders like the SE-R spec V motor and I also like vorquey 6 cylinders a-la Nissans VQ35DE motors.


I would really like an MS3 but I'm swearing off turbo motors. NA horses please!

 

[Betelgeuse]

Torque FTW!

I'm sorry but I can't stand revving a motor to high heaven in day to day driving. Maybe if I was at a track but torque is useful on the road, on the track, wherever you happen to be.


My beef is with turbos, quite frankly: I just don't trust em! Too much stuff to break.

I like torquey 4 cylinders like the SE-R spec V motor and I also like vorquey 6 cylinders a-la Nissans VQ35DE motors.


I would really like an MS3 but I'm swearing off turbo motors. NA horses please!

Well I can understand that ^^^. This is my first turboed car so who knows. But from what I read, if cared for, they can last a long time. What exactly is a 'long time' differs from person to person though. I've heard some say >100k, while some say over >150k depending on how much care was given to the turbo. I hope I get at least 150k on the clock before any major work. I always idle it after driving it hard and change the oil frequently among other things. We'll see.

 

[Stu C]

If you just want power and IMO a more refined interior, get the MS3. I'm dissappointed that Honda is ~65 HP and ~100 lbs of torque down on the MS3 for such a small gap in price.

It's not just 100 lbs - it's ~140 lbs. DOUBLE. Coming from a Prelude, this is a huge jump that I haven't even fully tapped yet (breaking it in).

Any tuner will tell you that you're better off starting off with a turbo car if you want to increase HP - in other words, for the same money, you will be able to tune a MS3 higher than a K20Z3.

Anyway, not trying to rag on the SI, I would have loved to have stayed with Honda, but their lineup is looking like ass lately.

 

[I vtec do you?]

And I'll argue with whomever said Honda makes the best 4-bangers. Sorry but torqueless motors don't appeal to me. I know I'm being blunt but I'd take my Disi turbo over any K-series anyday (just my opinion).

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an SI vs. MS3 thread

You're comparing a turboed 4-banger to an N/A 4-banger.

How much torque do you think that motor would be putting out without the turbo? About as much as the SI? Exactly.

Look at what early turbos are doing to the K-series motors. They respond to it incredibly well, even stock. They can take heavy boost (600 WHP stock-internals k-series FTMFW!)

I just find it annoying that everyone rags on honda for being torqueless. It just seems that way because honda primarily makes 4-cylinder cars. Look at every other 4-cyl (With the exception of the new v-spec motor, that thing is hottt), they're all very low in torque. You just gotta expect that.

I don't think it'll be suprising if the next gen SI is turboed and putting out 300+ HP at the crank. There is just too much stiff competition (MS3, Redline, SS 'balt) for the SI to stay N/A and compete.

 

[kristina_kim]

How much torque do you think that motor would be putting out without the turbo? About as much as the SI? Exactly.

The SI still gives up 11 pound-feet of torque to the regular Mazda 3.

 

[Donas64]

The SI still gives up 11 pound-feet of torque to the regular Mazda 3.

Bingo!

Get caught in the in the wrong gear or out of the sweet spot in the SI, and Grandma in her dodge caravan will totally OWN you!

 

[KingMarineM16A4]

MS3 no doubt, check out my comparison review.
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123674291

 

[Speed3girl]

To each their own. Everyone is different.

I LOVE my Si because of the handling and the VTEC power. I hate the visability out of it.

Now the MS3 I LOVE the visability of it....but hate the not to stiff handling. I do love the HP and torque of the Speed.

But the Si will be missed TERRIBLY to me.

 

[kristina_kim]

To each their own. Everyone is different.

I LOVE my Si because of the handling and the VTEC power. I hate the visability out of it.

Now the MS3 I LOVE the visability of it....but hate the not to stiff handling. I do love the HP and torque of the Speed.

But the Si will be missed TERRIBLY to me.

You meant that the handling of the MS3 is too stiff, right? I agree, but I like it like that. Better feedback than the SI and more precise control.

 

[Speed3girl]

You meant that the handling of the MS3 is too stiff, right? I agree, but I like it like that. Better feedback than the SI and more precise control.

Well yeah and no. I guess I came off wrong there. I meant that I feel more confident taking a high speed turn in the Si rather than the Speed.

 

[Betelgeuse]

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an SI vs. MS3 thread

You're comparing a turboed 4-banger to an N/A 4-banger.

How much torque do you think that motor would be putting out without the turbo? About as much as the SI? Exactly.

Look at what early turbos are doing to the K-series motors. They respond to it incredibly well, even stock. They can take heavy boost (600 WHP stock-internals k-series FTMFW!)

I just find it annoying that everyone rags on honda for being torqueless. It just seems that way because honda primarily makes 4-cylinder cars. Look at every other 4-cyl (With the exception of the new v-spec motor, that thing is hottt), they're all very low in torque. You just gotta expect that.

I don't think it'll be suprising if the next gen SI is turboed and putting out 300+ HP at the crank. There is just too much stiff competition (MS3, Redline, SS 'balt) for the SI to stay N/A and compete.

When considering 4 cylinders of varying makes, Honda tends to be among the lowest in terms of torque but I agree, a lot of that has to do with the displacement they chose to build on. Nevertheless, when comparing both these cars (ms3/SI) you have to as they come right off the factory floor.

Right now Mazda is offering a high performance 4-banger for peanuts. Yeah it uses a turbo but you can't say, 'well if you put a turbo on a SI it will....' If you put a turbo on the n/a 3 (like the Hiboost kits available) they make crazy power too, I've seen upwards of 400 hp. If you put a bigger turbo on the ms3 and tune it, it will make a whole hell of a lot more hp as well. Playing the if game can apply to every car.

And while I'm sure the SI's engine is over-engineered, I seriously doubt it will run 600 whp on stock internals. Sorry to be a doubter there, but if you can point me to a link I'd be less of a skeptic.