Startup Oil Consumption

[brandini]

We're talking clearances of thousandths of an inch, doesn't take much.

 

[Maroon]

Rings expand with heat, and so does the block and cylinder which then reduces clearances. The most amount of clearance in our situation is on a cold engine.

The < 60 seconds (probably more like 30 or 40 seconds) that it takes for the smoke to clear seems too short for thermal effects. I don't know, maybe that is it, but it's just another theory that can't be proven by any of us.

The fact that is not common means it is a maintenance issue, whether it be oil ran too long, crap oil, crap filter, or otherwise. It's *more* common on Mazdas older engines because of the oil ring drain issue and their love of synthetic which would break down more slowly. But you're not getting quality products at a 19.99 oil change place.

I really don't know why people keep saying this on this forum. It is a common problem. How many threads on the first page of this forum for this 2.5 year production run vehicle have a topic of oil burning? How many times has someone mentioned that their Protege or Mazda 3 smoked from the day they bought it?

You proved your own point, most owners do proper maintenance, many don't, those that don't usually have an issue or have a use-case that is more susceptible to oil burn at start-up before the engine can warm up (cold climates, live very close to interstate, using crappy oil, etc).

I proved my own point? That's a good thing, right? The year is not 1970, cold weather and interstates aren't acceptable excuses anymore. If this were user error, you would see this problem across all vehicle platforms unless you're trying to make a case that there's something special about Protege owners.

I'm not sure what your oil standards are or how you've come to the conclusion that you can't get quality for $19.99, but you can. And, again, if something like poor quality oil changes were to blame, you would see this issue across all vehicle platforms....unless you're trying to argue that only Protege owners go to Jiffy Lube.

I'm not trying to make a case that other vehicles don't burn oil. Some have poor maintenance owners, some were designed by morons just like this car. The point is: there are too many car models without this problem to blame the Protege's oil burning on anything but poor design.

 

[brandini]

How do you think a mechanical thermostat works? Metal that expands and contracts with heat/cool.

You're looking at a forum and looking at all the problem threads, of course you're going to see problems- it's a poor sample of the vehicles.

Jiffy Lube uses Penzoil products, the real issue was smaller chains that went by price and didn't ask to see tests:
http://www.api.org/news-and-media/n...motor-oils-fail-to-meet-performance-standards

If 1 in 5 failed, you do the math how common crap oil was.

If an oil change and tire rotation takes an hour if done safely, cleanly, and without error- how of that 19.99 is for parts after labor is taken out?

I understand you're not happy, go take it out on your car, not on others in a forum.

 

[Maroon]

What does a thermostat have to do with anything? Nobody is arguing that metal doesn't expand with heat. It's just that nobody here knows how fast piston oil rings expand in 30 seconds of heat. Like I said, maybe expansion is the case, but that only exists as a explanation because all the other theories failed. Not because anyone has any evidence. Good enough for theory, not for fact.

Even if my sample were limited to internet forums, it would be valid. Open up any auto forum and the first 2 pages will tell you of the common issues with the vehicle. This isn't just one random thread. There are multiple threads on this topic.

"1 hour oil change"? Have you changed your own oil and rotated tires before? 25 minutes tops if you're working with jack stands and a tire iron, nevermind some place with a 2 post hoist and an impact. Does someone seriously hang out under your car for an hour when you get an oil change? Their money is likely made from the bogus flushes and filters they sell you. They just want you in the door.

My only beef is that you keep chalking this issue up to poor ownership and maintenance out of bias and with no evidence.

 

[brandini]

No, this forum is presenting evidence and you're disregarding all of it.

 

[Maroon]

No, I am not disregarding any of the evidence. I am questioning the back and forth theory so maybe we can figure out the problem and fix it only once. Have you read the entire thread? The original poster has come back and said that rings did not fix his problem.

Apparently for you it's more convenient to blame the owners and not care to have any real solution to the problem.

 

[brandini]

Lucas oil thickener, not sure used correct gaskets on valve stems

Upper/lower oil pans, main seal, valve stem seals, pcv valve replaced twice, compression test checked

suspect oil rings on the pistons are shot

re-ringed, no mods to pistons, still gets light smoke

No, I am not disregarding any of the evidence. I am questioning the back and forth theory so maybe we can figure out the problem and fix it only once. Have you read the entire thread? The original poster has come back and said that rings did not fix his problem.

Apparently for you it's more convenient to blame the owners and not care to have any real solution to the problem.

What back and forth theory? You have two guys right here, one with questionable work and pouring horrid lucas stuff in, thickening his oil, and making the problem of oil can't drain quickly enough even worse. #2 has gone about it mostly correct except he doesn't state the extent of his rebuild, did they deck the head/block, check bores for roundness, re-bore, re-hone, and to what clearances. He's missed his shot at modding the pistons or replacing them with modern designed ones but seems to have a decent mechanic that actually addressed the problem. If only he'd remember that synthetic flows better than conventional so using dino with a car KNOWN to have issues such as this is asking to have the issue again.

You doubted the issue, someone presented evidence
You doubted the oil quality, I've provided evidence from the API
You said there is more oil in cylinders on start up and that's already been proven false by someone that looked

What's your educated guess, because all signs are pointing to the fix that one user already has done.

 

[Maroon]

What back and forth theory? You have two guys right here, one with questionable work and pouring horrid lucas stuff in, thickening his oil, and making the problem of oil can't drain quickly enough even worse. #2 has gone about it mostly correct except he doesn't state the extent of his rebuild, did they deck the head/block, check bores for roundness, re-bore, re-hone, and to what clearances. He's missed his shot at modding the pistons or replacing them with modern designed ones but seems to have a decent mechanic that actually addressed the problem. If only he'd remember that synthetic flows better than conventional so using dino with a car KNOWN to have issues such as this is asking to have the issue again.

The back and forth theory: some say it's valve seals, some say it's worn rings, some say it's stuck rings, some people want to blame maintenance.

And I would agree with the bolded. Perhaps some of those things are a part of the problem and should be considered before tearing down an engine. So you agree, then, maybe there's more to the issue than the 4 simple theories above. Gee, exactly what I've been saying the entire time.

You doubted the issue, someone presented evidence

Never doubted the issue. Never doubted the evidence. Only doubt the theories.

You doubted the oil quality, I've provided evidence from the API

You provided a source stating some oils are bad. ...groundbreaking... Nobody doubts there's poor quality oil out there. You have no evidence to say that all the Proteges with this issue have used inferior oil.

Funny you keep picking on dino oil when Sc122002 claims he had been running synthetic prior to the oil burning.

You said there is more oil in cylinders on start up and that's already been proven false by someone that looked

Where? I must be missing where someone observed the cylinders right after driving and a few hours later. But to further expand this point, if a piston is left on the compression or combustion stroke, the oil may not be able to get past the seated valves.

What's your educated guess, because all signs are pointing to the fix that one user already has done.

Jeez, you start your response by admitting Sc122002 left out a bunch of information about what "essentially a rebuild is" and then finish your response by saying he's given the answer to this problem?

It's important to know what all he had done - if anything more - to fix the issue. He also hasn't followed up with how the car is running now.

And did ya miss the part where 03FamWagon - the guy who started this thread - has had both rings and seals replaced and is still burning oil?

How are either of these cases definitive?

 

[brandini]

Doesn't matter what oil you're using if your car needs a repair. Oil is not a fix unless you're using something so wrong that it's affecting the engine. Lucas oil stabilizer should not be used. Would you ever use it exclusively?

My evidence is simply showing that 1 in 5 tested failed to meet minimum standards. If you use an oil that meets minimums, yes that oil is still inferior to many other oils out there. It's not either or, it's a very wide range of performance differences.

Can you point to 03famwagon's re-ring? I've only read about head work.

And only SC's case is even close to proper, but went and poured molasses into the engine and is unknowingly making the problem worse.

 

[ZackN]

Well stay tuned, cause she's smoking again. My bliss was pretty short lived.

Dang!

So you did the top end, but not the rings correct?
Are you going to do the rings and maybe a few more oil drain holes in the piston?

 

[pcb]

I just read through this thing last night and I think I skipped over it the first time for some reason but there's a lot of stuff in there that makes sense, and a couple things I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I can see the gummed up ring causing the oil burn with the throttle plate closed and excess pressure and such, but the only reason I see this going away is because the cat warmed up enough to hide this problem. The idea of sufficient expansion in a short period of time seems like a bit of a stretch for me but I do intend to run through the different scenarios people have commented on to get a concrete idea of the scenario that causes the cold start smoke.

There is a very simple test to see if the oil is coming from your valve seals or your rings,...

Run your car hot for a good run then shut it off and let it sit all night.

In the morning, pull your plugs and look down each cylinder and check for oil on top of your pistons.

If they are wet with oil,.. your valve seals are leaking.

If they are dry, put your plugs back in, start your car and run it for about 20 seconds and shut it off.

Pull the plugs again and check for oil again.

If the pistons are wet with oil, then your oil rings on your pistons are seized.


Keep in mind, there is really only three places the oil can be coming from,... Valve Seals, Oil Rings, or Head Gasket.
If the head gasket was leaking, it would most likely leak into the coolant or onto the ground as well.
If the valve seals are leaking, there would most likely be oil on the pistons in the morning and burn oil all time.
If the rings are seized THEN you get the specific huge cloud of smoke for about a minute, IF you believe the Croatian mechanic who figured out the issue.

For those who are having a hard time wrapping your head around the oil rings doing everything so fast,... I'm thinking of it like this,...
The oil ring on a piston had very little mass and would need a lot less time to heat up and expand. The oil that would cling to the cylinder walls (after not being scrapped away) would be very hot from being in with the combustion and then deliver that heat to the oil rings in short order.

Either way,... It doesn't matter,.. I simply believe the dude from Croatia,... nothing is 100% definitive but his observation and explanation is pushin over 90% for me,...

Keep in mind, anyone burning oil may very well have BOTH valve seals and rings being a problem.

I still have to put up my pictures and even though it's still smoking, the amount of smoke has decreased and my pinging is gone. So the head didn't resolve my problem but it did make a difference in the running condition of my car.

I'm guessing that your brand new cylinder head and all the components down stream will be fouled up in very short order,... then your pinging will come back,...

I think you should do the early morning spark plug test then expect to do your rings,...


P.S. I don't burn a drop of oil and DO believe it is maintenance related,... I change my oil every 3000 miles and put 1/3 of a can of seafoam in with the NEW oil and leave it in there.

My used oil looks almost as clean as my new oil going in,... the sludge and varnish has been removed and is constantly being cleaned.

ANY oil over time picks up dirt, varnish and acids from combustion which is stored in suspension and circulates through the engine.
Perhaps synthetic oil itself can last for 7,500 miles but it's carrying 2 1/2 times the dissolved plaque just waiting to coagulate and plug the tiny little heart arteries of our FS engine.

My car is on blood thinners (seafoam) She's healthy and happy and I'm not worried about burnin the oil,...

 

[pcb]

One of the first things I did was a compression check and got 220 on the first, and 180 on the rest. Did it dry and wet with no significant difference. Anyone had that higher number 1 compression before?

Ran some seafoam through the engine for a few hundred miles recently to see if there would be any change and it didn't seem to make a difference either direction.

The standard compression (new FS engine) is 171 psi with a minimum of 119 psi at 300 RPM,... your compression may be higher due to carbon buildup.
(It's probably lower now after the cleaning and new head)

Seafoam is more of a preventative measure. It needs to flow past the varnish and sludge to remove it, but if your piston drain holes are plugged there is not much you can do besides a re-ring.

There is a product (I forget the name) that you pour in the spark plug holes and let it sit to help dissolve the varnish that seized the rings but the guys here didn't have much luck with it.


Another thing to consider is that once you start burning oil, your problems will snowball,... some of that unburnt and semi-burnt oil is going through the EGR valve polluting and fouling it. It gets on the cats and can even burn out your pre-cat if there is enough. It fouls plugs and builds up on top of your pistons increasing the compression that can lead to pinging. Your MPG will go down wasting gas and you may end up spending as much money on oil as gas,... Your car may retaliate by throwing any of a multitude of codes, then go into limp mode and then it dumps way more gas into the engine, wasting even more and fouling things up to the point of a complete coronary and funeral,...