spring rates for stock MSP struts?

[dmitrik4]

just a quick question.

i know this has been mentioned before, bnut damned if i can find that thread. it looks like i'll be switching to GCs next season. for budget reasons, i'd like to retain my MSP struts.

what's a ballpark estimate for the springs the struts can handle? i know Tom (DistantTea) was running ~350f/215r on his stockers. i think i'd like to go higher in the rear if possible (maybe 350/300(?)), but not if it ruins my damping.

thanks!

 

[xelderx]

I'm interested as well. I just ordered some 450#'s for the rear. I believe I have 350# on the front right now. I'll let you know how these work. I'm definitely going to have to loosen the swaybar and lower my rear air pressure...which I wanted to do anyway.

 

[dmitrik4]

justin-

tom said he reversed the springs for kicks (215f/350r), and w/ the 21.5 bar set to full stiff ("maximum ass damage," to quote), his MSP was "an animal," but no good on the street. i suppose with the bar softened it might be livable. definitely let me know how the 450s work out!

 

[xelderx]

justin-

tom said he reversed the springs for kicks (215f/350r), and w/ the 21.5 bar set to full stiff ("maximum ass damage," to quote), his MSP was "an animal," but no good on the street. i suppose with the bar softened it might be livable. definitely let me know how the 450s work out!

I feel pretty confident that I'll have to loosen the bar some. They should be here in the next few days. I'll probably get them installed this weekend.

 

[iracemine]

i got ground control on my p5 with stock struts and it doesent move at all. i have a srmotorsport rear sway bar and people aproch me constatly wondering how i got a station wagon to stick like that!!

 

[low_psi]

i think i'd like to go higher in the rear if possible (maybe 350/300(?)), but not if it ruins my damping.

300 seems like a good option, might be a tad stiff but I think it'd be fine as long as you aren't running larger than the 20mm MSP rear sway bar.

if you keep the GC's rates in proportion with the stock MSP spring rates, a 350lb/in front spring would equal ~285lb/in rear spring. those rates matched with the MSP sways should keep the handling pretty neutral.

 

[dmitrik4]

i'd like to go a bit past neutral. hmmm. think the ~285s w/ the AWR bar would let me go from "autoX loose" (with the bar full stiff) to "not going to kill me on the street" (with the bar full soft)?

i don't drive fast on public roads anyway, so i'm never anywhere near even the stock limits. i'm also debating whether to swap out my ES front bar for the MSP bar.

thinking... keep the suggestions coming!

 

[xelderx]

i'd like to go a bit past neutral. hmmm. think the ~285s w/ the AWR bar would let me go from "autoX loose" (with the bar full stiff) to "not going to kill me on the street" (with the bar full soft)?

i don't drive fast on public roads anyway, so i'm never anywhere near even the stock limits. i'm also debating whether to swap out my ES front bar for the MSP bar.

thinking... keep the suggestions coming!

In my case I like the car to be a little tail happy. I was going to go with 400#'s for the rear like Rustychops has on the Pro5 he co-drives, but I figured with the adjustable 21.5mm rear swaybar I could stand a little more spring rate and a little less tension on the bar. I actually have my front MSP swaybar disconnected right now and the car doesn't understeer at all. We'll see what happens with the new rear springs. I might end up having to put the front endlinks back on if the rearend gets too unpredictable. Right now with no front sway, rear sway on max, and stock GC spring rates I'm getting near perfect off throttle oversteer.

 

[dmitrik4]

In my case I like the car to be a little tail happy. I was going to go with 400#'s for the rear like Rustychops has on the Pro5 he co-drives, but I figured with the adjustable 21.5mm rear swaybar I could stand a little more spring rate and a little less tension on the bar. I actually have my front swaybar disconnected right now. We'll see what happens with the new rear springs. I might end up having to put the front endlinks back on if the rearend gets too unpredictable. Right now with no front sway, rear sway on max, and stock GC spring rates I'm getting near perfect off throttle oversteer.

me too, but less tail happy onthe street than on course. i'd like to dial in the happiness for the events, but dial it back for driving home.

doesn't rusty have illuminas on his DX?

how's the body roll in front w/ no bar? tom loved the grip, but hated the loss of steering response. too bad it's such a pain to change it out- some experimentation would be nice.

 

[xelderx]

me too, but less tail happy onthe street than on course. i'd like to dial in the happiness for the events, but dial it back for driving home.

doesn't rusty have illuminas on his DX?

how's the body roll in front w/ no bar? tom loved the grip, but hated the loss of steering response. too bad it's such a pain to change it out- some experimentation would be nice.

I don't think I can answer the body roll in the front honestly. My GC are so low that cornering puts the front struts on the bumpstops. So technically I still have no body roll without the swaybar. I'm hoping the stiffer rear springs will allow me to re-attach the front sway and I'm eventually going to get another set of front springs so I can raise the front a little. Right now the spring perch is as high as it will go and I only have about 3/4's of an inch before the bumpstops hit. I'm going to get an inch taller spring. Rusty's Pro5 has the 5-way adjustable Mazdaspeed JDM green struts that you can't get anymore. I'm guessing they are very similiar to the Tokicos.

 

[proman]

I remember someone mentioning that the stock msp struts may be overdampenend for the stock msp spring rates and the struts may be able to handle up to ~300-350lbs or somewhere around there. So 300 may be what you are looking for to keep it safe with your msp struts and keep it streetable. You could just tighten up the rear sway bar to your taste for the events. I just got GC's waiting to go in with Illuminas and it will be the first time experiencing a non stock suspension. I'll see where I'll need to go from there. Good info so far though.

 

[dmitrik4]

ok, 300-350 is what i thought i remembered as well. if i need to invest in a pair of illuminas for the rear, i could probably live with that...i'm sure the stock rears are weaker than the fronts.

enjoy the suspension- keep us posted. i remember that even when i first installed the MSP bits, it was a revelation. good times.

I don't think I can answer the body roll in the front honestly. My GC are so low that cornering puts the front struts on the bumpstops. So technically I still have no body roll without the swaybar. I'm hoping the stiffer rear springs will allow me to re-attach the front sway and I'm eventually going to get another set of front springs so I can raise the front a little. Right now the spring perch is as high as it will go and I only have about 3/4's of an inch before the bumpstops hit. I'm going to get an inch taller spring. Rusty's Pro5 has the 5-way adjustable Mazdaspeed JDM green struts that you can't get anymore. I'm guessing they are very similiar to the Tokicos.

nice. you should think about a smaller DX/LX bar, perhaps.

actually, the P5 belongs to a friend of his. rusty has a DX- now that i've gotten some sleep (!!), i remember that his setup is close to mine, w/ the exception that he's got the AWR 21.5 bar. and about 150 lbs less weight.

you can still get the MS struts...if you want to pay $240-$280 for them. each.

 

[proman]

since you guys had already dealt with installing new struts and springs, would you recommend getting new endlinks or just reusing the stock ones? From all the other posts it seems that they are a pain and people usually end up cutting them off.

And xelderex, just want to make sure, when autoxing do you hit the bumpstops even though you have the spring perches all the way up?

 

[low_psi]

no need to get new ones. just buy some pb blaster and let it soak into the endlink nuts for a bit before you tackle them. i'm probably going to buy a few replacement nuts just in case when I put my GC's on in a few weeks.

air tools make the job SOOOO much quicker and you don't have to worry about those nuts cause they get torqued right off.

 

[scapamouche]

having ridden in that 400# P5.... I'd have to recommend against it... The ride was VERY VERY rough on the street.

Car handled great at the autox, but the price... Sorry, Steve....

 

[proman]

yeah air tools would be great but how much fun would it be without some scraped knuckles and stripped nuts? haha I guess i'll just try the pb blaster deal. I just don't wanna be scrambling around for replacement parts if something goes wrong. replacement nuts ain't a bad idea though

 

[xelderx]

yeah air tools would be great but how much fun would it be without some scraped knuckles and stripped nuts? haha I guess i'll just try the pb blaster deal. I just don't wanna be scrambling around for replacement parts if something goes wrong. replacement nuts ain't a bad idea though

Let me know if you screww up your stock endlinks. I have 2 sets of stock rear endlinks.

 

[xelderx]

having ridden in that 400# P5.... I'd have to recommend against it... The ride was VERY VERY rough on the street.

Car handled great at the autox, but the price... Sorry, Steve....

I kind of expect that, but the Pro5 isn't my daily driver. If I'm driving it around town then I'm either pimpin' or heading to the mountains for a little touge. Well see how it goes.

For the question above about my extremely low ride height with the spring perches all the way up. I bought the GC's used so I don't know if the springs i got were the ones sent with the kit. I'm pretty sure the part #'s on the springs matched what the instructions said, but my s*** is definitely slammed. Here's a pic...bad angle to see the drop, but those are 15" wheels with 205/50-15 Azenis.

Just to give you an idea of my body roll. the pic above is about as much roll as I can get. Thats the initial turn in of a 180* pivot cone.

 

[low_psi]

yeah air tools would be great but how much fun would it be without some scraped knuckles and stripped nuts?

exactly. i prefer to bleed on my car

 

[proman]

Let me know if you screww up your stock endlinks. I have 2 sets of stock rear endlinks.

thanks for the offer. I'll let you know if I need them. I got my GC used as well and I'm assuming they're the original springs that came with the sleeves. your car does look slammed. I would like to have some ability to raise it if I need to but I guess I'll just have to see.