Question: Port and Polish?

flat_black · Jul 11, 2003

Has anyone out there gotten the heads ported/polished or any valve jobs? Slight port matching? Anything? Just wondering if anyone's tried it yet, and seen what they get for gains. I'm going to try and pick up a new FS9 block for the car, and start some port work myself, but it may not be done for a while, so, just thought I'd ask in the mean time. =)

twilightprotege · Jul 11, 2003

i'm getting mine done in early october, that's when my mum (yes i'm australian and that's how we spell it) is going to italy (damn her) and i'll be able to use her car.

what i am doing : porting and smoothing valves back (not polishing - polishing is not good), polishing combusion chamber, 3 angle valve job and getting the desk milled to increase the compression ratio to 10.0:1 (us aussies have 9.7:1 compression as standard)

i'm also getting custom cams made up (much more agressive than mazdaspeed)...so i'll be looking at 40-50hp no worries.

and for my troubles...all this is costing me around $920usd....pretty F'ing good for 40-50hp....and it's staying n/a. let's race turbo boys

hehehe

later

flat_black · Jul 11, 2003

Wow! You really think the gains will be that much from a port/polish/valve job? Everyone seems to think so, and I know the manifolds are rough (Sand/investment) cast, but still 30-50hp is a LOT to gain from such a simple modification. Are you going to get the intake/exhaust outlets port matched at any point? That's what I was going to do, eventually. =) Let me know how that all turns out!

twilightprotege · Jul 11, 2003

yeah 50hp would be the most i'd expect to see, but dont forget that is with cams as well....but i'm going to do a before and after dyno to show the improvement.

while the head is getting ported i'm going to hand sand the intake manifold a bit myself and then when they are almost finished the head they'll match the two together

but yeah, i'd be pretty confident with the cams i'm going for and the headwork i'll be getting an extra 50hp

by the way, the guy i spoke to in my city (very good reputation) said that even up to 8000rpm with our engines, the valve springs and retainers shouldnt need changing unless you're either going for crazy lift or a full on competition engine...i was quite happy to hear that.

later

DooMer_MP3 · Jul 11, 2003

I was going to say, the opinion on the other board (protegeclub.com) is that anything more than the FS-ZE/MazdaSpeed cams will require better valve springs. Now I don't know what to believe

.

Chris

twilightprotege · Jul 11, 2003

well extra duration wont make a huge amount of difference, but lift will. if you increase the lift a huge amount, yep, new springs 100%. 10000rpm, yep, new springs. big boost turbo, yep, new springs (gee i'm sounding a bit repitive dont you think? hehe) ... anyway keeping the stock rev limit and increasing the duration...you'll be right.....

in other words, it's almost a case of if you wanna swap them, cool. if you dont, cool. the duration i am going for is 225 @ 0.050" and 0.355" lift which is quite a bit move than the mazdaspeed ones - 210 @ 0.050 and 0.344" lift....an extra 0.011" of lift wont hurt the springs, neither will the extra 15 degrees of duration...

i was originally thinking of just swapping the cams, but i thought while i'm at it i might as well take the head off and get some work done...and two mods done at the same time will be like night and day. the difference will be massive. i'm cerainly looking forward to it (but my fiance isnt)

i just hope that everyone realises just how much power is lost in the head that can be re-gained through some proper machining etc......

DooMer_MP3 · Jul 11, 2003

And with the increasing number of boosted members losing engines, and my limited funds, I'm starting to think people have given up on NA too early.

twilight, does your protege have upgraded valve springs from the US FS-DE? Is your engine an FS-DE or FS-ZE? When are you getting your custom cams? I'll have to see how well you do with your springs.

Even so, are valve springs cheap? Hard to replace? I'm new to this and crave information

. Thanks!

Chris

Blown · Jul 11, 2003

What kind of fuel management are you going to use? Also, are you going to get it tuned?

I believe you when you say that 30-50HP can be found but without proper tuning/management it will go all to waste. I think 30HP is possible with I/H/E, grounding kit, and a high-flow cat for the second cat.

twistedrx7 · Jul 11, 2003

hmm that 50 hp gain is a little high if u ask me. for what its worth i would get the stock head flow benched then i would port it, and your custom cams sound good but im more than sure that only .011" more lift and 15 degrees more duration than the mazdaspeeds arent gonna get u 50 hp more you'll be lucky if you get about 35 hp more

ohh and by the way the reason i say to get it flow benched is Hondas' b16a,b18c, and b18b all flow 280 cfm stock, thats what a chevy 350 ci motors heads flow. meaning that in stock form honda heads have the capabilities to flow enough air without porting to support over 250 N/A hp, s*** i know our heads dont flow that well but if they come anywere near the 175-200 cfm i wouldnt bother porting it unless ur going FI or pure N/A race car with more than 200 N/A hp.

Zeus · Jul 11, 2003

I have custom cams at 227 degrees ex, and 223 in, same ramp rate and .010" extra lift on both. 6 degrees overlap with symetrical lobe centers. There's a 4 degree static timing advance which works out well to sync with the exhaust cam pickup. Got a 4-2-1 header and cat-less exhaust, but still have a stock head, intake manifold and ECU. It's a differnt car for sure, good top end pull and drivable low end. I hit the rev limiter one time to test it and didn't detect any float, but I'm sure it's close. Bind is right there too, can't get no closer Runs a little lean, could use bigger injectors. In fact it could blow at any time, but I have fun scrubbing 215/40 Proxies down every 20km.

I don't know about pulling the motor down at this point because I kinda think to do it right It'll take a programmable controller and new rods. Long rods with low comp flat tops for an 11:1 CR. Yeah that would be nice. Or I could sell it and use the money I'd spend to get an EVO. Yeah that would be a lot nicer.

twilightprotege · Jul 11, 2003

doomer_mp3, my engine is a bastardisation between the FS-DE and ZE, built for the australian market....our engines are slightly more tuned than the DE (ie 95 RON unleaded minimum, 9.7:1 compression). i dont know about the valve springs. i'm going to be getting the cams ground in about 1 month from now and get the head work about 2 months from now (damn money), but i'll definately be getting before and after dynos...

blown, i'm going to get a 255lph hi-pressure walbro intake pump to help with fuel and will be upgrading to 720cc injectors in the near future as well...they are enough to handle 365hp in turbo trim...but in the mean time, no i'm not getting any new engine management system...yes i know this will not allow the full potential of the headwork and cams, but....damn money! :'(

twistedrx7, yeah 50hp would be the most i'd expect....but i have seen it before out of an old FJ20 nissan engine (i think that's the one)...if i can get 35hp i'll be very happy. but yeah i'm going to get the head flowed before and after to show the difference porting etc can make....and yes, turbo is a future target for me

zeus, have you dyno'd your car with the cams in? that would be very interesting to see, esp considering the cams i am wanting would be quite similar...do you know what duration you're getting advertised (or 0.006")??? i'm going for 266 deg...but anyway, you'll definately get a lot of benefit out of increased comp ratio and head work.....big time!!!!

later

Blown · Jul 14, 2003

Twilight - Well, good luck in your quest. I hope you do succeed!

DooMer_MP3 · Jul 14, 2003

Zeus said:
I have custom cams at 227 degrees ex, and 223 in, same ramp rate and .010" extra lift on both. 6 degrees overlap with symetrical lobe centers. There's a 4 degree static timing advance which works out well to sync with the exhaust cam pickup. Got a 4-2-1 header and cat-less exhaust, but still have a stock head, intake manifold and ECU. It's a differnt car for sure, good top end pull and drivable low end. I hit the rev limiter one time to test it and didn't detect any float, but I'm sure it's close. Bind is right there too, can't get no closer Runs a little lean, could use bigger injectors. In fact it could blow at any time, but I have fun scrubbing 215/40 Proxies down every 20km.

I don't know about pulling the motor down at this point because I kinda think to do it right It'll take a programmable controller and new rods. Long rods with low comp flat tops for an 11:1 CR. Yeah that would be nice. Or I could sell it and use the money I'd spend to get an EVO. Yeah that would be a lot nicer.

Zeus,
Did you decide on those cam specs? Or did you discuss it with a tuner (such as TriPoint or Corksport)? Also, you mentioned 4 degree static timing advance. Is this from camgears?

I believe if you were to get perfworks' piggyback when its available, you'd be able to pull some more power out of everything.

As for valve float. How do you detect it? How hard is it to install new valve springs? Are they accessible from just pulling the valve cover off? How much would springs cost, if needed?

Chris

Zeus · Jul 15, 2003

The durations listed are at the standard .050" lift. I came up with the specs myself, measured the existing timing and sent some stock cams out for weld up and regrind with the new specs. That's before MMS had the blanks for sale. If you go custom get the blanks, over all its much cheaper. DO NOT under grind the base circles of the stock cams for any reason.

I haven't run on a dyno because I'm not impressed by numbers, just feel. I mean how often does anybody drive on a dyno. Its the street and track that matter. Sure you could spend months in test and developement, but I have better things to do.

Static timing advance is where you move the target or pickup forward in revolutions. Very popular mod with motorcycles, where all you need is a new taget disc. I built a bracket for the crank pickup that I could adjust. Very crude but effective. I got lucky in that the engine ran with the new cams timed to the desired settings, then I did the static advance. I got det at 6 degrees and backed off. That was hard to believe given the low comp and valve overlap.

As Twisted was saying there may not be a good cost to benefit ratio with major head work. I used to think there would be until I saw the porting of the stock head. Its pretty good. Maybe you could fit bigger valves in for some benefit, but you'll first need a larger TB and intake work. To me its all about cost/payback. I read somebody post here that for the cost of the EVO they could build a Protege thats better. I don't think so.

I also don't think a piggy back will do much for most applications. They're normally limited in what they can do, and most of that can be done with simple tricks like static timing, injector size/pressure and sensor filter-tweakers.

Valve float is pretty easy to notice, there are one of two things that happen. The engine goes flat like hitting a soft rev limiter, or the valves hit the pistons. You need to be aware of the former before reaching the ladder. Springs and ti retainers are available, and not hard to install if you have the head off. Impossible with it on. MMS has everything you need, if you got the money.

PRO 5 · Jul 16, 2003

Hey Zeus, what does MMS stand for and how can I get in contact with them? I've been searching for springs and retainers for a while now but could not come up with anything. This looks very promising to me! Do they also have or can make larger valves? Thanks!

Dave

flat_black · Jul 16, 2003

Hey, PRO 5... How much did those rods and pistons run you, and where did you get them from? I'm thinking that'd be a worthwhile investment, myself.

PRO 5 · Jul 16, 2003

I got both of them from Pauter. They ran me about $1400 with shipping. Gotta love living in Hawaii. Brian is a good guy! Awesome customer service!

Dave

Zeus · Jul 16, 2003

MMS = Mazda Motorsports. Sometimes you can backdoor to their catalog at http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CPSearch. Not much in the way of details though, just part numbers.

twilightprotege · Jul 17, 2003

zeus, do you know what your advertised duration is? i know 0.050" is the standard for measure them, but advertised has a real lot to do with the cams as well....you could say it's like the difference between a O shape and a 0 shape at the top of the cams - O being a lower advertised duration compaired to a 0 shape. i think that makes sense....

anyway, i'm getting my base dyno run on saturday which i can post in this thread so then when i get the cams and headwork done, and get it re dyno'd we have a comparison.

later

DooMer_MP3 · Jul 17, 2003

Nice twilight, please do post those before/after numbers here. I'll be anxiously awaiting

.

Chris

Question: Port and Polish?

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