new AP user

[arkat3kt]

Hey everyone, I hate to start a thread that has probably been posted thousands of times, but I recently acquired a Cobb AP and I want to be prepared when it arrives. I don't know much about tuning using the AP, but I have been reading and I wanted to get the opinions of some of the "pros" on here. Here are the current mods I have on my car (2008.5 Mazdaspeed3):

Cobb SRI and TIP
Forge BPV (blue + 2)

I only ask because I was looking on Cobb's website and the map that I would be inclined to use is the Stage1+SF 93 Octane. However, as I was reading the notes, it recommended the factory blow-off valve. Should I reinstall the factory BPV or will I be okay using this map and the Forge? Thanks!!

Shaun

 

[Bravnik]

You will be fine with the Forge. No worries.

 

[H3br3w_Ham3r]

I use the forge with my map and no problems at all.

 

[danagirl]

doesn't matter forge or no forge you will be happy.

 

[arkat3kt]

Thanks for the replies! I can't wait to get it and pull more of the potential out of this motor!!

 

[leadf00t]

Your going to want to most likely remove the 2 shims, and use just try it with the blue spring. I was running blue+1, and was spiking into the 20's, and holding 18 awile before the taper started to occur. I am running yellow+1 right now, and will spike 19, hold 17's, and taper. I only have 91 octane available to me, so I dialed it back a little, but with you having 93 I think you'll be ok with just the blue spring.

Also do you have one step colder plugs coming ?

 

[arkat3kt]

Your going to want to most likely remove the 2 shims, and use just try it with the blue spring. I was running blue+1, and was spiking into the 20's, and holding 18 awile before the taper started to occur. I am running yellow+1 right now, and will spike 19, hold 17's, and taper. I only have 91 octane available to me, so I dialed it back a little, but with you having 93 I think you'll be ok with just the blue spring.

Also do you have one step colder plugs coming ?

You know, I had read something about changing out to one step colder plugs. What is the reason for doing that? Is there a preferred plug that you guys like to use?

 

[unicef]

You know, I had read something about changing out to one step colder plugs. What is the reason for doing that? Is there a preferred plug that you guys like to use?

I'm running my AP with the Forge and blue spring with one shim, and have seen good results. I was getting some fairly serious knock with stock plugs, but after I changed to step colder plugs it's mostly gone. Unfortunately I also made some changed to my map at the same time I changed my plugs, so it's hard to say for sure if the plugs helped. Either way, I believe they are recommended for anyone running the AP.

 

[leadf00t]

You know, I had read something about changing out to one step colder plugs. What is the reason for doing that? Is there a preferred plug that you guys like to use?

It's my understanding that you should switch to colder plugs any time you're running higher than stock boost levels. Everyone seems to like the Denso ITV22's as they come pre-gapped.

 

[speed3driver]

Plugs will let you run smoother through the power band up to redline. I felt the difference when i got mine.
Defiantly recommend them

 

[arkat3kt]

Thanks for all the input. I will pick up some Denso's soon. I understand they should come pre-gapped, but I wanted to verify that the correct gap is between .026-.028?

 

[leadf00t]

Thanks for all the input. I will pick up some Denso's soon. I understand they should come pre-gapped, but I wanted to verify that the correct gap is between .026-.028?

I believe that is correct.

 

[MSMS3]

Plugs will let you run smoother through the power band up to redline. I felt the difference when i got mine.
Defiantly recommend them

Wrong. there is no way, absolutely no way colder plug will "let you run smoother through the power band to redline."

The power band maxes at 5,500 rpm on the stock turbo and is absolutely falling like a rock by 6,000. After that you are just making heat and shortening the life of the turbo. A plug change cannot change the internal flow characteristics of our small K04 turbo. This remains so with a Cobb AP tune. Cobb's technical papers confirm that their tunes do not shift the power curve to the right or change the rpm at which the engine creates its maximum power. Their tunes, if correctly applied to the appropriate mods, can create more power within the existing power band.

I don't know where some of this misinformation comes from. OP will need the colder plugs. They will help reduce possible ignition spark retard due to increased chance of knock on his new tune. They will not solve the turbo flow limitation above 6,000 rpm.

 

[arkat3kt]

Wrong. there is no way, absolutely no way colder plug will "let you run smoother through the power band to redline."

The power band maxes at 5,500 rpm on the stock turbo and is absolutely falling lick a rock by 6,000. After that you are just making heat and shortening the life of the turbo. A plug change cannot change the internal flow characteristics of our small K04 turbo. This remains so with a Cobb AP tune. Cobb's technical papers confirm that their tunes do not shift the power curve to the right or change the rpm at which the engine creates its maximum power. Their tunes, if correctly applied to the appropriate mods, can create more power within the existing power band.

I don't know where some of this misinformation comes from. OP will need the colder plugs. They will help reduce possible ignition spark retard due to increased chance of knock on his new tune. They will not solve the turbo flow limitation above 6,000 rpm.

I do plan on getting the colder plugs. Thanks for the info. I hadn't planned on taking it much past the 5,500 rpm point anyways. While I do want to maximize the power gains from the mods I have installed, I still would like to maintain the reliability of my engine. (thumb)

 

[8.5MS3]

Wrong. there is no way, absolutely no way colder plug will "let you run smoother through the power band to redline."

The power band maxes at 5,500 rpm on the stock turbo and is absolutely falling lick a rock by 6,000. After that you are just making heat and shortening the life of the turbo. A plug change cannot change the internal flow characteristics of our small K04 turbo. This remains so with a Cobb AP tune. Cobb's technical papers confirm that their tunes do not shift the power curve to the right or change the rpm at which the engine creates its maximum power. Their tunes, if correctly applied to the appropriate mods, can create more power within the existing power band.

I don't know where some of this misinformation comes from. OP will need the colder plugs. They will help reduce possible ignition spark retard due to increased chance of knock on his new tune. They will not solve the turbo flow limitation above 6,000 rpm.

I hold boost all the way to redline, it does taper down some, but not nearly the way it does on the stock tune. colder plugs will simply reduce chances of detonation. A tune will improve your power curve, not plugs

 

[MSMS3]

I hold boost all the way to redline, it does taper down some, but not nearly the way it does on the stock tune. colder plugs will simply reduce chances of detonation. A tune will improve your power curve, not plugs

Agreed about colder plugs being needed by OP. They do not change the limitations of the turbo. Respectfully disagree about any advantage to holding boost to 6,700 rpm on the K04. You can tune to maintain boost to redline. You can definitely tune to do that. AP will let you control throttle position so this is possible. But maintaining boost after 6,000 (actually no more than 5,800 rpm) does not mean more power. it means thermal ineffeciency -- soaring turbo housing heat and a loss of power.

Here are a couple objective reports to ponder on this issue. Cobb's technical report on throttle mapping on the MS3 with K04 turbo (ultimate answer of no benefit at the very end of the report), and Neuspeed's analysis of the K04 limitations on modded VW-Audi cars using that turbocharger. Please note the concerns about excessive heat softening the turbo shaft and producing failures. The conclusion is that sustained high boost above 5,800 rpm will kill the turbo over time and is not going to produce more power.

Just food for thought about trying to push the stock K04.

 

[8.5MS3]

Agreed abot colder plugs. They do not change the limitations of the turbo. Not sure about any advantage to holding boost to 6,700 rpm on the K04. You can tune to maintain boost to redline. You can definitely tune to do that. But maintaining boost after 6,000 (actually no more than 5,800 rpm) does not mean more power. it means thermal ineffeciency -- soaring turbo housing heat and a loss of power.

Here are a couple objective reports to ponder on this issue. Cobb's technical report on throttle mapping on the MS3 with K04 turbo (ultimate answer is at the very end of the report), and Neuspeed's analysis of the K04 limitations on modded VW-Audi cars using that turbocharger. Please note the concerns about excessive heat softening the turbo shaft and producing failures. The conclusion is that sustained high boost above 5,800 rpm will kill the turbo over time and is not going to produce more power.

Just food for thought about trying to push the stock K04.

Please see attached dyno pulls...having 100+hp/tq at the top end is a bit of improvement in my book....

The K04 is an undersized turbo, however failure is caused by sustained temps at high pressure, since i do not drive at 20 psi for more than a few seconds temps do not have a chance to reach excessive levels, hotter than normal, yes, catastrophic, no. since i do not drive like a douche and hit high boost constantly, and allow cool downs after EVERY drive regardless of length or style it is not a major concern.

here is a quote from the K04 article.

"Unless a careful and extended idle-down is performed at the end of every hard driving session, the rapid heat build-up from high boost/high rpm operation causes the turbine shaft to soften, and allows the inconel turbine head to droop. The result is an imbalance
that ultimately leads to a shaft failure."

since i do this religiously it is not a concern.

 

[MSMS3]

Great improvement in performance, 8.5MS3. Your power curve says a bit about where shift points might be optimized.

I was just wondering how the extended but not increasing hp above 5,500 rpm would work out on the drag strip or in any other WOT run. Our close ratio 6 speed tranny yields an rpm drop of only about 1200 rpm or so with each upshift. Wouldn't you want to upshift at 5,500 rpm, no later than 5,800 rpm anyway?

That way you could fall back into the fat part of your torque curve and stay at the same hp but with higher torque? Wouldn't that be better than holding throttle open to 6.500 with falling torque, even if hp remains constant?

Wouldn't you get better performance by upshifting at 5,500 rpm, even with your tune, and never have to be concerned about the risk of trashing the turbo and having to rigidly adhere to the recommendation of a full five minute cool down after aggressive driving?

I don't think that Cobb as the maker of AP, and Neuspeed as the major importer and tuner of the K04 for German cars, are both off the mark in recommending shift points no higher than 5,800 and boost levels no higher than 17-18 on this turbo regardless of the tune.

Those are great dyno numbers, however. Congrats on the tune. I could be mistaken, but IMHO, they do not justify pushing the turbo on out there, clearly into severe thermal inefficiency when the hp and torque you are putting down are both there in abundance from 4k to 5800k rpm.

 

[8.5MS3]

ideally yes i would still shortshift, and do in daily driving when i feel a bit frisky. however i dont take the car to the strip since it is detrimental to the drivetrain. I do autocross and since speeds never reach above 50-60 mph i am in 2nd gear the entire time, so i had this tune created so that i have loads of torque when going through say a slolom at 30mph and can still maintain power as i accelerate through a sweeper at 45-50 without having to shift.

I do not disagree with what cobb and neuspeed have posted, i read those articles a while back and agree with their findings. however, damage comes from constantly pushing the turbo to the limits for extended periods. Will this tune shorten the turbo's life, absolutely, will it happen within say 50k miles, probably not. but if that was such a huge concern to us, we wouldnt be modifying our cars.

you yourself are running a stage 2 setup. with a good tune and 93 octane you could safely be well above where i am now since i am only stage 1. When i reach a full setup (tbe, fmic or air to refrigerant (havnt decided), turbo manifold, stage 3 clutch) I will not be pushing to reach 400whp like the guys on MSF. i would be more than happy sitting at 300-325 whp from say 3k-6k safely. anything more than that in a fwd car is useless

suspension is the next animal i need to tackle

 

[MSMS3]

I can see your point. It's a good one. For autox you would benefit from holding it in second gear and not having to go through upshift-downshift crap with third. And you are going to be changing throttle position some rather than running WOT all the time. Your tune should be great for that.

Does an AP tune let you get around the torque limitation in first and second gear? I didn't think it would. Maybe I'm wrong about that? I thought that was controlled by logic outside the ECU. On stock tune we don't get full power until third so the only way for me to improve 60 ft times at the strip is with better tires, regardless of how much power I build "up top."

I am worried about guys here who think that because they can AP tune to keep the throttle open to redline, that they should do so, then regularly run the thing to redline and expect their turbo to last, or that they would see any performance benefit other than for special circumstances like autox running in second gear.

I can think of one possible benefit on the strip. That would be to continue to shift at 5,500 except the 4-5 shift. Being able to hold in 4th through the traps and avoid the 4-5 shift without losing power might produce a better ET and trap speed. It would take some testing to find that out. That's the only possible circumstance I can think of where it might make sense to push beyond 6k rpm at the strip.

Yeah, it's the guys that try to push these engines past 350 whp that end up popping after doing stupid, unsafe things and then crying that it's not their own fault. Then they want to remove their mods, put the stock parts back on, take it back to a dealer and try to get a warranty fix.

Where I come from that's just as fraudulent as Mazda denying legitimate warranty claims on stock engines.