NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

My last motor saw 8000 rpm all the time and I never had an issue changing gears, I have done well past 7500 rpm with a STOCK trans in my car..anyways, the car is getting a built trans after while anyways, so it doesn't much matter..

As for an intake, well the itb's will not have a plenum on top of them due to height issues with the hood, they will have very short filters on top of them.

Theres a world of between 8000 and 10000. I'm not trying to crap on your build, and really the ability to change gears wont affect absolute power which is what we are all really concerned about - all i'm saying is that the nature of synchro gearboxes is that the more you rev it, the more effort is required to shift as the syncho cones struggle to slow the shaft down to engage the gear - right up to the point where the gear will not select. That's why gears shift like butter under low load/low RPM conditions, but require monumental effort when you are out on the ragged edge at the drag strip.

ITBs are cool, but have you considered a long runner single throttle tunnel ram design? Tunnel rams (if made correctly and tuned correctly) will utilize resonance to actually boost air pressure (to the tune of 7psi at the valve in some extreme designs - but 4psi is quite easy) and push VE through the roof. This is the design of choice for Pro-stock motors and the effect can be amplified by pointing the air-inlet forward and outside the body of the car, creating ram-air effect as well.

Cost wise, the fabrication would be more, but materials would be less (1 throttle as opposed to 6), and tuning would be far easier - it just wont look (or sound) quite as sexy as ITBs. Thats not to say ITBs don't have their advantage. Brilliant throttle response and passive cylinder filling that no other intake method can match - but they wont focus the power quite as well as a tunnel ram.

Again, i have the maths for all this if you're interested.
 
Honestly, the car will get ITBs for now. I will have this car for a very long time still, and I know changes will be made to the setup over time to try different things and such. Manifold/itb setups are definitely one of the things that will be tinkered with to see what works and what doesn't. I am fitting this under the hood, which will always be a restriction of sorts.

What are you talking about when you say tunnel ram? Perhaps I am not familiar with the terminology
 
Honestly, the car will get ITBs for now. I will have this car for a very long time still, and I know changes will be made to the setup over time to try different things and such. Manifold/itb setups are definitely one of the things that will be tinkered with to see what works and what doesn't. I am fitting this under the hood, which will always be a restriction of sorts.

What are you talking about when you say tunnel ram? Perhaps I am not familiar with the terminology

tunnel ram is a traditional common plennum setup - with the runners, plenum chamber, throttlebody and intake tract all tuned to a certain resonance.
 
I would be curious to see what you have for numbers on something like this..part of the reason I didn't decide to do a manifold is because I would have had to find a shop to design one properly..that scared me off for now.
 
I would be curious to see what you have for numbers on something like this..part of the reason I didn't decide to do a manifold is because I would have had to find a shop to design one properly..that scared me off for now.

The maths is pretty straight forward.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3619609&postcount=370 download the spreadsheet in that post. Has lots of stuff thats useful for NA engine development.

Theres a worksheet in there called intake manifold design - that will work out calculate the runner length for a given set of inputs, and tell you for each reflection where you will get a pressure wave hit.

Go for reflection 3 or 4 (as the runners will be considerably shorter than reflection for 1 and 2 which will be nigh on impossible to fit under the hood). The lower the reflection number the bigger the power hit for a given reflection.

Also, this will show you that the throttlebody (intake pipe diameter + thickness of the throttleblade) will be smaller than you might think it should be. Helmholtz is weird... but its correct. Smaller throttle with velocity close to 180ft/s is going to give you the biggest numbers. But the sheet takes the scary maths and does it all for you :)
 
Good to see there is still activity in this thread. I'm thinking about starting to tinker with Mk I again and re-start planning for Mk II.
 
The maths is pretty straight forward.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3619609&postcount=370 download the spreadsheet in that post. Has lots of stuff thats useful for NA engine development.

Theres a worksheet in there called intake manifold design - that will work out calculate the runner length for a given set of inputs, and tell you for each reflection where you will get a pressure wave hit.

Go for reflection 3 or 4 (as the runners will be considerably shorter than reflection for 1 and 2 which will be nigh on impossible to fit under the hood). The lower the reflection number the bigger the power hit for a given reflection.

Also, this will show you that the throttlebody (intake pipe diameter + thickness of the throttleblade) will be smaller than you might think it should be. Helmholtz is weird... but its correct. Smaller throttle with velocity close to 180ft/s is going to give you the biggest numbers. But the sheet takes the scary maths and does it all for you :)

I am confused as to what you are asking at a couple spots in the sheet..

Tuned Runner Engine Speed
Tuned Plenum Engine Speed
Tuned Intake Pipe Engine Speed
 
I am confused as to what you are asking at a couple spots in the sheet..

Tuned Runner Engine Speed
Tuned Plenum Engine Speed
Tuned Intake Pipe Engine Speed

Engine speeds where the tuned effect for each of the items is in effect.

Each component is actually a different calculation, so its entirely possible to tune them to different RPMs.

The VE equation in there will also interest you - will tell you just what you are up against chasing 270hp at the wheels :)

be kind - i wrote that sheet a long while ago, and truth be told haven't really looked at it since :S
 
Ohh..I am plenty aware of what I am up against with my build..thus it has been 14 months and I still have only started putting things together.

I will have to figure out those values..in time.

VE is 96% lol
 
Ohh..I am plenty aware of what I am up against with my build..thus it has been 14 months and I still have only started putting things together.

I will have to figure out those values..in time.

VE is 96% lol

96%? thats a pretty low requirement. Most of people in this thread (regardless of engines) were looking at requiring in excess of 100% VE to achieve the goal, which is why things like extreme intake manifold designs and custom headers etc are par for the course. What horsepower did you use (bear in mind the formula's are based on engine horsepower, to achieve 270 at the wheels you will need to bump the target horsepower up quite a bit).

Also what BSFC value are you estimating for this?
 
I put 310 crank hp in, but didn't change the BSFC..I didn't really mess too too much with it. The stock numbers for the motor gave a VE of 72%
 
I put 310 crank hp in, but didn't change the BSFC..I didn't really mess too too much with it. The stock numbers for the motor gave a VE of 72%

ahh ok

also bare in mind the VE it calculates it peak power VE.. the highest part of your VE curve will be at peak torque - which wont know until you dyno the car...

if its 98% at 10k rpm, and peak torque is at 8k rpm (say), the VE will likely be well up over 100 to support it.
 
I gotcha...yeah I have not looked into the equations and such yet..just messed with it lightly..If I might ask, what do you do for a living?

I am a Mechanical Engineer, so I am not foreign to some of this stuff, but I am definitely to parts of it. I am just curious as to what you do, you seem very knowledgeable.
 
I do lots of things....or rather have done lots of things.

I'm in IT - at the moment doing operational and technical analysis, test design and analysis and project management.

But I have done software development in the past.

Never been formally trained mechanically. I work for an engineering firm though so that helps - i'm also a giant cheapskate so i do my own mechanical work because i dont want to pay someone else to do it.

Most everything I know is from reading, talking to experts, lessons learned the hard way, and badgering engine builders for trade secrets.

Helps that my motorsport of choice is drag racing - which demands creative thinking to get the most amount of horsepower out of a given powerplant for the least amount of money possible.
 
The shop that the heads are at is way behind due to some customers gumming up his schedule with crap (trust me it is funny what people will bring him and want with it sometimes).

So...the heads are still in process of being done, but honestly, they have only been hot tanked and cleaned up, the porting has not started yet.

I called SCAT a couple weeks ago and figured out the part number that I need for the H-Beam rods that I will be ordering shortly. I will finally order the water pump and oil pump next week Meziere Water Pump and Moroso 22600 Oil Pump.

Once the pump comes in I can finish the CAD drawing for the mounting bracket and have that made.

The Ferrea valves, Interprep springs, locks, and chromoly retainers are here( the valves are with the heads), the cams will probably go out next week, and the lifters probably a couple weeks out..

I have turned my research and attention now to the transmission and finding the gear ratios that I want to have to make sure I don't fall out of my powerband at any point...along with what I want to trade my Maxima in on. :D

But for now...that is pretty much it.
 
Ok...figured out the trans. situation...but I figure I will wait until the motor is done to start buying stuff for it. I am changing focus to the ITB setup.

I am going to get the flanges and ITB's mocked up and take some measurements to see where I stand with the hood clearance. From there I will decide how much space I need to make with the hood modifications/lowering the engine. I also have to get under the car and figure out how much room I have to drop the engine down. I believe this to be the only way that I can fit the ITB's under the hood without a huge buble/cowl in the hood (which I DO NOT want to have).

The TB and flanges are ~3-3.25inches tall together. This is TB sitting down in the recess cut for them in the flanges..

Any ideas on how to measure how much clearance I have between the hood and the deck on the manifold side of the heads?
 
Guestimate the height at first then subtract a few inches. Cut a block of wood to your guestimate minus a little, sit the block on the deck then put some modeling clay of top of it. Push the hood down, in theory the clay will compress giving you a measurable height.
There might be an easier way but this is always the way I though of doing it.

Just and Idea but why not do a cross ram style something like what KLZE porshe was doing? obviously it'll be more complicate (just answered my own question) but its another possibility.
 
I have talked with Mike (KLZE Porsche) a lot about this build and he has helped me a lot with some of the detail stuff. I actually just spoke with him last night about the ITB setup. His application is very different from mine.

I am wanting to keep this under the hood without the huge bulge in the hood. He figures in his he is going to have to do something pretty wild with his hood. He is also doing his for a F.I. setup and using a different transmission (where he has to move the motor and such around anyways). Doing the cross ram would be nice, but one..its very complicated, two I do not have room under the hood for something like that. The issue is the height at the front head deck..the stock manifold slopes back away from the hood and is only marginally taller that the valve cover..so I run out of room quickly.

I like the putty/clay idea though..might have to give that a shot!
 

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