Msp Vs. ???

[HondaEat-R]

He's talking about me. I have no idea how much power I have, and I can count on one hand the times I've "messed around with" other cars. I try not to street race, it's silly, boyish, and dangerous. Of course I want to sometimes but...what's it worth ? It's not even a race, it's a roll. The most recent times I've played on the street was with a 04 Mustang SVT Cobra that had intake, full exhaust, and a 14lb pulley for the supercharger. He got me by 4 car lengths. The other time was with a Yamaha R6, and the guy couldn't drive for s*** so(too much downshifting)...I got him by a fender or so.

For the most part, I try to never be stupid, and race on the street. Although it has happened about 3 times total.

 

[BadBandar]

I would go for the msp over a civic any day. Civics are just to common and i dont really like how they look. The mugen si is overpriced for what they are offering performance wise. Im surprised to see how quick a 07 civic is but ill love to take it for a walk. (thumb)

 

[CnoTataymo]

The Si coupes are pretty quick stock and handle pretty good. Add bolt ons and ECU reflash, they're quick. You can get one into the 13's.

 

[sandspeed]

The Si coupes are pretty quick stock and handle pretty good. Add bolt ons and ECU reflash, they're quick. You can get one into the 13's.

Very true and with a nice little 75 shot into the 12s, see them all over the place down here, they're quick.
I'm not a huge fan of the lastest style but if I had to choose I would pick up an clean EK hatch, throw in a K20, i/h/e kpro plus 100 shot can call it a day
baaaaaaaaaaaaah baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

 

[jamesk]

ya but there not very good street cars. the powerband is only from 5800 rpms to redline. kind of anoying when you wanna pass someone or race some one, or whatever.

but for the track there fast, but in order to go fast, you better be near redline. poor engine lol

 

[mikeski]

how bout an acura tsx? or BMW 325? stock.

 

[Ricktalife]

Why is that a good comparison ? The MS3 has what, 65 more horsepower than the NA Civic Si ?.....sounds a little one sided to me.
The MSP is faster than a '01-03 Si (160hp), no need to debate that.

his point is you were comparing 2 cars that are years apart

 

[special--k]

his point is you were comparing 2 cars that are years apart

Agree, thats the first thing i thought when i read that. If you are going to compaire Cars then the 03 MSP vs. the 03 SI is a better compairson then vs 07 SI

 

[HondaEat-R]

I actually wasn't the one to start the SI to MSP comparison. Read more deeply Daniel son. I simply stated the #'s difference, and that one is faster than the other. Thanks.

 

[HondaEat-R]

ya but there not very good street cars. the powerband is only from 5800 rpms to redline. kind of anoying when you wanna pass someone or race some one, or whatever.

but for the track there fast, but in order to go fast, you better be near redline. poor engine lol

I don't know what type of cars you have owned in the past (nice protege btw), but IMHO there's nothing annoying about a high revving car, that also makes power all the way to redline.. Ever been in a S2000, RX-7, or even a small b16 equipped car ? Some motors love to rev, and appropriately enough that's how they make their power. Like you said though, the problem is they usually don't have enough torque... I've seen h22 swapped hatch's w/ bolt-ons crap all over turbo vehicles of comparable power.

 

[jamesk]

inline 4 NA race inspired engines are made for the track. they werent made for the streets. there not slow, but they are lacking power and get up and go from the rpm range for the street, not the track. in order to speed up, you must get ready to race. in order to have a fast inline 4 NA built motor to keep up with forced induction, this is what has to be done.


plus a h22 honda weighs nothing. that has alot to do with how fast it is.

its a fact that a inline 4 only has 4 cynlinders, and to make it fast without forced induction, there are going to be some sacrifices to make in order to achieve high horse power. again, for the track, they can keep up, but there not economical for aggressive street driving what so ever.

 

[HondaEat-R]

I think you're generalizing wayyy too much. I've had several cars that were "high revving" NA, and had comparable power (or less than) to the MSP (stock), and they were faster than the MSP....anywhere, street or track.

Ok,...what are the sacrifices that one must make to make a NA achieve high power ? Bolt ons and valve-train work is a good start. And NA 4 cylinders are made for the track ? What are you even talking about ? What track, there's lots of types. I understand your point about needing to get them into high RPM's to make power, but that's not hard to do if you know how to drive. How many types of auto racing use exclusively 4 cylinder NA specific cars ? Not many, except for restricted entry races.
We've already stated that there is typically a sacrifice of torque to gain high revs, not always though. Why are turbo cars "economical" for aggressive street driving ? Most people can't launch for s***, which leaves them spinning the tires @ the start(because they hit boost too soon and too hard), essentially wasting a lot of your torque. While a high revving NA has gotten the start w/ minimal spin, revs very high and makes power all the way to redline. Less gear changing means faster times(as long as you can drive).

I see you claim "NA beast", so you must have done a lot of motor work before you went w/ the snail, correct ? Please don't base your argument around what a P5 does, because a P5 is not even a quick car(stock), nor is it a high revving motor, nor does it respond well to mods. BTW, a H22 weighs more than our motor.

I truly respect your opinion though.

 

[starscream2k1]

So to kinda bring this back to topic... I dont think even with most if not all boltons you can beat some of these cars you guys speak of. I mean i recently got tuned and have a good amount of mods but **** i just hit like 190whp on a Dynojet. The tuner is well known and knows his s***...maybe theres a issue with my car that i dunno about. But here are my mods and my dyno chart and you guys can see for yourselves (btw 1st dyno was just prepping up to see where the 440's (injectors) are at and how much fuel we need to add/pull etc).

Dont get me wrong i wasnt going for all out HP, but i was kinda hoping to hit atleast 200whp. At one point we heard slight pinging and hence didnt wanna push the motor even more. The other problem was with the 626 intake mani and the MSP Ecu and Unichip. In the middle you can slightly see on the dyno like a dip, i am thinking its the stock ECU trying to do whatever it does when VTCS/VICS gets activated. So sometimes when i drive i feel the car hit that spot and it just falls flat on its face. I see the boost go up, and the car goes no where then all of a sudden it picks the **** up for that split second then i gotta shift...

-Injen CAI (converted to SRI) w/ Dryflow Filter
-BEGi FMIC w/ Turbo XS BOV and Forge Diverter Valve (Dual Setup)
-Steedspeed Exhaust Manifold (CNCed Manifold with Tubular inside design)
-Corksport S Pipe
-Vibrant Turbo Back Exhaust (techically its from the S pipe back)
-Separated Vac sources for BPV/BOV/Boost Gauge
-Unichip with D Module
-626 Intake Manifold (ported a bit (gasket matching mostly))
-440cc WRX Injectors
-Unichip Boost Controller
-Medievil Pullies (Crank, Water Pump and Alt, stock size but lightweight)
-9.5 psi boost on the stock unichip controller

HERES STOCK DYNO (NO MODS)

HERES AFTER TUNING AND MODS DYNO (AFTER MODS)

So how you walk all these cars? LOL i have nooooo idea... i mean i like my msp and i understand its an econobox....but fucknuts! LOL

 

[Stormtrooper77]

That's it huh? With those mods you would expect quite a bit more. But like you said, you may have something else wrong with your car.

 

[jamesk]

yea quater mile your right, there is no disadvantage. i was talking about the twisties.

and yea i was generalizing. maybe the better word would be i am taking a adverage. if i was talking about pacifics then certain cars have to be brought up, and the arguement would be what car is better.

listen i agree with you that the track, they are good cars. but im just saying when you take that high reving track car to the streets, its not really an impressive car untill you start going threw the gears at wot, which is illegal anyway. always down shifting and always on the throttle in order to keep up with people, etc.

a turbo car is different. if you wanted to pass someone or just need a little extra torque, just give the car a little more throttle in any gear, and the car will take off. it really doenst take effort to go fast.

believe me, i love the NA scene, but i believe those cars are made for the track. i know the honda scene very well and we can both agree that those cars are fast. but we both also know, cruising in a integra with a b series motor cruising at 3500 rpms, and someone tries to pass you, the car looses a second into down shifting and therefore, the car probably wont catch up. but they are fun cars to drive though, but everytime i drive these cars, i always get into trouble with doing the speed limit. lol

its hard what i am trying to say and i cant say your wrong because i agree with you, but i think you get it

 

[HondaEat-R]

yea quater mile your right, there is no disadvantage. i was talking about the twisties.

and yea i was generalizing. maybe the better word would be i am taking a adverage. if i was talking about pacifics then certain cars have to be brought up, and the arguement would be what car is better.

listen i agree with you that the track, they are good cars. but im just saying when you take that high reving track car to the streets, its not really an impressive car untill you start going threw the gears at wot, which is illegal anyway. always down shifting and always on the throttle in order to keep up with people, etc.

a turbo car is different. if you wanted to pass someone or just need a little extra torque, just give the car a little more throttle in any gear, and the car will take off. it really doenst take effort to go fast.

believe me, i love the NA scene, but i believe those cars are made for the track. i know the honda scene very well and we can both agree that those cars are fast. but we both also know, cruising in a integra with a b series motor cruising at 3500 rpms, and someone tries to pass you, the car looses a second into down shifting and therefore, the car probably wont catch up. but they are fun cars to drive though, but everytime i drive these cars, i always get into trouble with doing the speed limit. lol

its hard what i am trying to say and i cant say your wrong because i agree with you, but i think you get it

I totally understand what you're saying now, and I agree w/ most of it. Some really good points made by both parties. My thing is, I just don't consider street racing, "racing" at all. It's such an uncontrolled environment, that it's hard to tell what a car can do, can't do, and might do, ya know ?

Also, I to would still like to see these guys running a stock gt25 @ 10psi "walk" a STI, the thought of someone saying that makes me giggle like a school girl.

Look at Starscream2k1 : He has a really nice list of mods there, and at basically 10psi, he's slightly under 200whp. Not necessarily "bad" numbers by any means but, there's no way in hell he's walking the Evo's and STI's, etc..

I think it's hard for some people to actually be honest about their cars power, and often overestimate it's ability to perform against other vehicles. It's cool to be proud of your ride, I am, but it's another thing to carry a chip around on your shoulder.
The RX-7 Club is like that. I had a '87 Rx-7 se NA, and a '88 Turbo II. At the same time I owned them, I had a 1993 Nissan Nx2000 (sr20de). They couldn't and WOULDN'T believe that the Nx2000 w/ intake, header, exhaust, cams & advanced timing, would s*** all over both the Turbo II and the NA Rx-7. They call it "The 7 Can't Lose" syndrome , and I think similar variations of that syndrome affect many Tuner car owners. Haha. I sound like a car psychologist.

 

[Knox Joe]

Well just so everyone knows when I beat the Evo I was at 14 psi, and I have basically the same mods as Starscream except no intake mani, but I also run pure methanol, and more boost. Then I have a bunch of misc stuff not for the motor, like motor mounts, clutch, etc.

I'd imagine Starscream's problem is the 626 mani in conjunction with the Unichip. I have heard it causes problems.

Also, JDMsam posted a video, but apparently that's not enough. (shrug)

 

[haze20]

I don't know. Maybe my car is a freak but with just my Vibrant exhaust, K&N drop in filter at 10PSI I made 195whp and 195wtq on a dyno jet. Hell when I had a spike to 12-13psi in the middle of the power band my car was making 230wtq. You can call B.S. but ask Ryan, Magnum, JNato and pretty much the whole Va crew because these were all done at dyno days. I never said I would walk on a STI. I said with full boltons with a built motor at 15PSI you should walk away from an STI. I barely beat my friend who has a 02 WRX with the old 5-speed STI gears from a roll. He makes 240whp and 240wtq.

 

[Knox Joe]

I don't know. Maybe my car is a freak but with just my Vibrant exhaust, K&N drop in filter at 10PSI I made 195whp and 195wtq on a dyno jet. Hell when I had a spike to 12-13psi in the middle of the power band my car was making 230wtq.

Nice numbers!

I haven't dyno'd mine yet.

I'm changing out the Unichip for something else, then I'll tune it.

 

[Ricktalife]

I've seen h22 swapped hatch's w/ bolt-ons crap all over turbo vehicles of comparable power.

speaking of s***, i'd like to s*** all over my neighbors 07 sti. too bad it won't happen.