FI quandry.

[DSMer]

I have an Turbo Eclipse that makin about 290HP so i'm familiar with turbos, My Bro's gota P5 and wants to turbo it, go figure. I gotta few questions.

I see alot of you limited to 7-9 psi. Is that because your using the stock fuel system? What size injectors come in a P5 stock? what size fuel pump? 150 lph? or what...

what upgraded pumps do you use/ what size injectors and what are you using to 'control' them. AFC?

2nd question. How many of you use some sort of datalogging device. & why don't I see the BOV"s being recirculated. Most cars run like s*** in a draw thru set up 'w/o recirculating back into the inlet stream

I keep seeing an o2 signal modifier. WHy or what is that for. 'to prevent part throttle fuel pull???

As far as timing control goes. DOes the stock ECU have a knock sensor of any kind that retards timing when it sees' detonation. AS you all may know timing advance is a good thing, i'm just wandering how you go about determining/monitoring your base timing/WOT conditions under boost.

 

[Matthew]

the o2 sig is to eliminate the CEL from eliminating one or more cats and keeping the car out of limp mode.

check out hiboost turbo systems. they run about 4 gs with everything you need, and on stock injectors and pump gas will give you around 260 whp, though if you have an automatic it will burn your tranny and manual you will need a new clutch.

as for the other questions, people with turbos can answer those questions.

 

[DSMer]

stock injectors ... 260HP.? . That would be 160 HP gain over stock. I wanna see the dynosheet and A/F numbers on that one. I need every bit of my 450 CC injectors to make that HP and my car/engine/ECU was designed for FI . Pretty sure a P5 doesn't have anywhere near that much injector stock. Theres just No way can a NA injector/fuel pump can supply enough fuel/preassure to support those numbers or the psi it would take to get there. Hell I think you need at least 190LPH pump and 450's to support even 200HP reliably.

 

[LinuxRacr]

No guys, the 260 HP was with upgraded 440cc injectors from RC Engineering. And by the way, my buddy Victor (Pirana) made 240 WHP at 11 PSI with the stock injectors, and the Haltech F10 fuel contoller.

 

[DSMer]

Thank you for clearing that up... any idea on the fuel pump upgrade? Whats a popular upgrade for you guys. ANy issues overrunning your stock FPR with upgrades pumps?

Thanks, I'm trying to dispell some of the myths my brothers got in his head about running a turbo in his p5

 

[LinuxRacr]

I have the Pierburg in-line pump on my setup. This is the same brand of pumps used by Mercdeds for OEM. It supposedly can support over 500 HP by itself. I edited my post above, go back and read it one more time.

 

[LinuxRacr]

I have an Turbo Eclipse that makin about 290HP so i'm familiar with turbos, My Bro's gota P5 and wants to turbo it, go figure. I gotta few questions.

I see alot of you limited to 7-9 psi. Is that because your using the stock fuel system? What size injectors come in a P5 stock? what size fuel pump? 150 lph? or what...
The lower boost is due to lack of proper fuel and timing management in most cases. The stock P5/Protege/MP3/MSP come with 280cc injectors, and accually flow more with more pressure.


what upgraded pumps do you use/ what size injectors and what are you using to 'control' them. AFC?
There are a number of pump upgrades available. I for one use the Pierburg in-line pump. It is the same brand that has been used by Mercedes for OEM equipment, and can supposedly support over 500 HP by itself. The AFC from Apex'i will not work on our cars due to the OBDII tricks our ECU employs.

2nd question. How many of you use some sort of datalogging device. & why don't I see the BOV"s being recirculated. Most cars run like s*** in a draw thru set up 'w/o recirculating back into the inlet stream
You are correct to assume this. With a MAP sensor, as you know, this would not be a problem with BOV's. Some members have either learned to live with the stalling, or have adjusted their BOV's to the point where stalling is minimum. The location of the BOV also downplays this too.


I keep seeing an o2 signal modifier. WHy or what is that for. 'to prevent part throttle fuel pull???
You are correct! It uses a pressure sensor to clamp the voltage at around 365 millivolts when the boost threshold is crossed.

As far as timing control goes. Does the stock ECU have a knock sensor of any kind that retards timing when it sees' detonation. AS you all may know timing advance is a good thing, i'm just wandering how you go about determining/monitoring your base timing/WOT conditions under boost.
The stock ECU does use a knock sensor, but it is not enought to fend off engine destruction. I use the J&S Safeguard to do active boost retard, and knock retard. That is why I am at 8 PSI right now. I won't go higher until I can get some more precise engine management.

 

[DSMer]

Thanks for your reply Linux.
240 WHP at 11 PSI with the stock injectors, and the Haltech F10 fuel contoller."

Cool. I don't doubt that he got there using a Haltech standalone, we use that in our 500HP Rally car. awsome device, but pretty advanced for the novice tuner. ?

"The AFC from Apex'i will not work on our cars due to the OBDII tricks our ECU employs."

BUMMER, your missing out. Strange 2G DSM are OBDII and we can use it! What OBDII tricks are you refering to, really I don't see why the APEXI AFC can't be used by you guys. I know several people with Miatas that use it ???

About larger injectors. I know you can up Fuel preassure and trick some more flow out of smaller injectors. Of course I"m an advocate of capacity. SO you install say a 440 or 550cc injector so as not go lean under boost of course . Know since the ECU is turning those on at the same rate as the little stock ones, but have ALOT more fuel flowing out of those 550's, DSM'er simply use the AFC or a MAF translator to intercept the AIr signal and tell it theres less air than is actually there so it triggers the injectors less often there for having close to stock mixture but all sorts of flow on tap when you go WOT. whew. SO What do you use to control your Injectors?

FYI. I have a POCKET LOGGER from digital tuning www.digitaltuning.com that is used w/a Palm 100. I plugged it in to the diagnostic port on my bros P5, set the byte timing and BAM BAM! DATA, (only 5 samples per second but it connected) we were able to look at all sorts of engine conditions. INTAKE TEMP, TIMING, O2, O2trims, RPM, SPEED. etc. and datalog it. I can't tell you how valuble this tool will can be when tuning a boosted car.

"active boost retard, and knock retard".

uhhh. so which is it.. I think you mean TIMING retard under boosted condition to Prevent Knock" ? Strange again. I tune for the highest timing Advance Posible (usually 18-20 degress @ 7100 RPM and If I see that my timing is being RETARDED I know I'm knocking or some other engine condition is effecting my tune, and need to add fuel somewhere. Do you guys have to REtARD your timing when boosting because you have a higher compression motor? I'm unclear on that...

What do you guys look for? Can someone give me an idea of an optimal engine condition under boost for a p5. Like what o2, what timing advance range, @ what AIr FLow rate/ (NOT PSI) <<
FI. My car is happy and fast with .92 O2's, 18-20 Deg Advance @ 26 lbs/Min Flow (happens to be14psi) @7100PRM If I see like 12DEG/ .88 o2's @ that lb/min I know i'm lean/knocking and the ECU has pulled timing out (causing a SPIKE in EGT) and have to back out of it and tune it some more fuel. I say that because different turbos push more/less air @ a given PSI. You guys seem to be running some massive flowing turbos @ low PSI's. Some of the T4's I'm seeing can FLow 550 CFM @ 14 lbs. OVerkill if your car can only handle say 300 CFM> follow me? However they are effecient and blow cooler air @ lower psi's. Lets you get away w/o intercooling I guess?

"I won't go higher until I can get some more precise engine management."

For real, recon i'm spoiled.. Theres no substitute for good Data accuisition and engine monitoring.

"Some members have either learned to live with the stalling, or have adjusted their BOV's to the point where stalling is minimum. The location of the BOV also downplays this too."


http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=24962&password=&sort=1&thecat=500

Notice my Air meter (3" GM MAF, the little black box controls it) it is AFTER the BOV"S and upstream of the Turbo in a BLOW THRU set up. ( I know Pretty TRICK Aint it ) This allows me to VENT the BOV's to ATmosphere! SO I don't hace drivability issues venting. If you have the Meter placed before the Turbo just find a way to plumb the bypass air back ANYWHERE in the inlet! I know this can be difficult with some BOV models. and doesn't sound as cool but at least you wont be belching icky RICH spew in between shifts.

 

[Matthew]

sorry i thought vic said juan was on stock injectors.

 

[LinuxRacr]

Thanks for your reply Linux.
240 WHP at 11 PSI with the stock injectors, and the Haltech F10 fuel contoller."


Cool. I don't doubt that he got there using a Haltech standalone, we use that in our 500HP Rally car. awsome device, but pretty advanced for the novice tuner. ?
It was setup by HiBoost Turbo Systems. Not a standalone though. Just a fuel controller.

"The AFC from Apex'i will not work on our cars due to the OBDII tricks our ECU employs."

BUMMER, your missing out. Strange 2G DSM are OBDII and we can use it! What OBDII tricks are you refering to, really I don't see why the APEXI AFC can't be used by you guys. I know several people with Miatas that use it ???
Our stock ECU's have a great deal of authority over closed loop operation. This article here explains it somewhat: http://flyinmiata.com/protege/tech/ecu_theory.asp

About larger injectors. I know you can up Fuel preassure and trick some more flow out of smaller injectors. Of course I"m an advocate of capacity. SO you install say a 440 or 550cc injector so as not go lean under boost of course . Know since the ECU is turning those on at the same rate as the little stock ones, but have ALOT more fuel flowing out of those 550's, DSM'er simply use the AFC or a MAF translator to intercept the AIr signal and tell it theres less air than is actually there so it triggers the injectors less often there for having close to stock mixture but all sorts of flow on tap when you go WOT. whew. SO What do you use to control your Injectors?
Right now, I don't have anything controllin my injectorsl. I have a Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator from Bell Engineering. It raises the pressure at the injectors. For me to run 8 PSI, I have to raise my fuel pressure to 98 psi. Insane. I max out my fuel pressure gauge.


FYI. I have a POCKET LOGGER from digital tuning www.digitaltuning.com that is used w/a Palm 100. I plugged it in to the diagnostic port on my bros P5, set the byte timing and BAM BAM! DATA, (only 5 samples per second but it connected) we were able to look at all sorts of engine conditions. INTAKE TEMP, TIMING, O2, O2trims, RPM, SPEED. etc. and datalog it. I can't tell you how valuble this tool will can be when tuning a boosted car.
I have the Nology PDA Dyno for my OBDII pocket logging. Does all that you mention above. I also have the TechEdge Wideband O2 with data logging. I haven't used the data logging on the wideband yet. It just got repaired.

"active boost retard, and knock retard".

uhhh. so which is it.. I think you mean TIMING retard under boosted condition to Prevent Knock" ? Strange again. I tune for the highest timing Advance Posible (usually 18-20 degress @ 7100 RPM and If I see that my timing is being RETARDED I know I'm knocking or some other engine condition is effecting my tune, and need to add fuel somewhere. Do you guys have to REtARD your timing when boosting because you have a higher compression motor? I'm unclear on that...
Ok, The J&S does both. It has active retard based on boost. The knock protection is after the fact if there is still detonation. It can retard each individual cylinder up to 20 degrees. When it detects knock, it retards additional timing in relation to the boost retard that is already going on until it stops hearing knock. It is based on boost, and therefore isn't that tunable.



What do you guys look for? Can someone give me an idea of an optimal engine condition under boost for a p5. Like what o2, what timing advance range, @ what AIr FLow rate/ (NOT PSI) <<
FI. My car is happy and fast with .92 O2's, 18-20 Deg Advance @ 26 lbs/Min Flow (happens to be14psi) @7100PRM If I see like 12DEG/ .88 o2's @ that lb/min I know i'm lean/knocking and the ECU has pulled timing out (causing a SPIKE in EGT) and have to back out of it and tune it some more fuel. I say that because different turbos push more/less air @ a given PSI. You guys seem to be running some massive flowing turbos @ low PSI's. Some of the T4's I'm seeing can FLow 550 CFM @ 14 lbs. OVerkill if your car can only handle say 300 CFM> follow me? However they are effecient and blow cooler air @ lower psi's. Lets you get away w/o intercooling I guess?
I'm gonna let the FI gurus answer this one.


"I won't go higher until I can get some more precise engine management."

For real, recon i'm spoiled.. Theres no substitute for good Data accuisition and engine monitoring.
Yep! On the real though.. I have a stand alone now (perfect Power PRS8, but the status of the unit is still yet unknown.

"Some members have either learned to live with the stalling, or have adjusted their BOV's to the point where stalling is minimum. The location of the BOV also downplays this too."


http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=24962&password=&sort=1&thecat=500

Notice my Air meter (3" GM MAF, the little black box controls it) it is AFTER the BOV"S and upstream of the Turbo in a BLOW THRU set up. ( I know Pretty TRICK Aint it ) This allows me to VENT the BOV's to ATmosphere! SO I don't hace drivability issues venting. If you have the Meter placed before the Turbo just find a way to plumb the bypass air back ANYWHERE in the inlet! I know this can be difficult with some BOV models. and doesn't sound as cool but at least you wont be belching icky RICH spew in between shifts.
Nice!

 

[Kooldino]

Well, most of us dont' run T4 compressors, we run bigger T3's, which is a pretty good turbo for the application. It's nice to have one that doesn't fall on it's face up high.

As for the haltech, it does work, but it looks a bit much for a n00b. A piggyback would definitely be easier to deal with. The emanage and the MPI tuner both work in our cars.

As for the S-AFC-II, people have gotten it to work with our cars.

Our stock injectors are rated at 280cc, BUT they may be under rated by mazda.

 

[DSMer]

"Well, most of us dont' run T4 compressors, we run bigger T3's, which is a pretty good turbo for the application. It's nice to have one that doesn't fall on it's face up high."

Right, T3's although/ however a little T25 garret couldn't fall on its face up high @ 6-9 psi, and its the most inneficient Tbo out there. low CFM of course. There not very efficient over 15psi though. T3's and the like can be run @ 20psi w/75%+ efficiency. 550+CFM Guess you can say you've got alot on tap. just seems like overkill. What Lb/min numbers are you guys flowing @ your psi levels?

Can someone get me a link to MPI

I'm looking for the best set up to DEFEND against detonation and provide an easy interface for fuel tuning. Looks like adding the extra injectors is popular but I prefer to upgrade to larger ones.

"Right now, I don't have anything controllin my injectors"

Damn do you not run RICH as hell off boost and at IDLE?

 

[Kooldino]

"Well, most of us dont' run T4 compressors, we run bigger T3's, which is a pretty good turbo for the application. It's nice to have one that doesn't fall on it's face up high."

Right, T3's although/ however a little T25 garret couldn't fall on its face up high @ 6-9 psi, and its the most inneficient Tbo out there. low CFM of course.

But the T25 isn't doing at redline what a T3 is.

There not very efficient over 15psi though. T3's and the like can be run @ 20psi w/75%+ efficiency.

Only with a slammin ass intercooler.

550+CFM Guess you can say you've got alot on tap. just seems like overkill. What Lb/min numbers are you guys flowing @ your psi levels?

Look at some dynos and calculate the lb/mins. It should pretty much be a direct calculation.

Can someone get me a link to MPI

www.modernperformanceinc.com i think. There should be a phone # on there. call the guy nick.

I'm looking for the best set up to DEFEND against detonation and provide an easy interface for fuel tuning. Looks like adding the extra injectors is popular but I prefer to upgrade to larger ones.

I understand the want to upgrade, but extra injectors is nice to have if you're coming from a car that doesn't know boost. That way it's running completely stock until it sees boost via say...a MAP sensor.

"Right now, I don't have anything controllin my injectors"

Damn do you not run RICH as hell off boost and at IDLE?

 

[DSMer]

But the T25 isn't doing at redline what a T3 is"

Hence.. "low CFM of course. I got rid of mine as quickly as possible

Only with a slammin ass intercooler."

Right..I'm asuming if you have a TBO you have an IC. WHy anyone would try yo run any turbo w/o an intercooler is beyond me.

"
Look at some dynos and calculate the lb/mins. It should pretty much be a direct calculation"

how so? with what equation? Heres asomehting I've learned
My Big 28 is a .48 TRIM, @ 14psi it flows 26lb/min. I can get that data from my logger in an instant, Your ECU gives yuo this info you just gotta go it. Via Data logging I can see throughout the RPM band where I need fuel or have to much. I'm just passing along some info here, I can't stress enough that if you can get at this info your tuning experience will be alot easier.

Heres a 2nd gear pull

RPM LB/MIN o2's Timing
4264.0 3.84 0.08 34.0
4416.0 5.33 0.64 32.0
5332.0 21.31 0.94 9.0
5816.0 23.0 0.94 11.0
6292.0 23.97 0.94 15.0
6748.0 25.42 0.96 16.0
7164.0 25.62 0.96 18.0

looking @ my o2's between 6200-7164 I can see that I could lean it out a bit up top as its getting RICHER and my Timing is still being advanced. Happy car.

3rd Gear pull after the 2nd shift above.

4668.0 18.48 16.0 0.94
5564.0 23.6 12.0 0.94
6368.0 26.23 16.0 0.94


YOu can see that @ 5500 RPM the Timing got pulled (NOt horribly but it RETARDED it 4 degrees!. The o2's are lower than the 2nd gear pull. THis tell me 2 things. I need to Add some fuel in the 5500 RPM range & that I am running out of fuel (needs more FP & INJ output will fix it. + on that pull my EGT's were quickly aproaching 1600F. But as I approached 6300RPM it got happy with the timing again so I know my tune is good Up top. I have 450's and thier operating @ 94% capacity. SO thats it. I know if I try any higher psi there will be trouble. JUst to give you some perspective those numbers equate to a 12.8 sec 1/4 @110mPH

 

[LinuxRacr]

Nice post man! Time to utilize my PDA Dyno in this capacity now. The voltages of the o2...I never really thought about using that to tune. Sweet!

 

[DSMer]

The voltages of the o2...I never really thought about using that to tune. Sweet! "

Yes you can use o2 Voltage to monitor your A/F condition. BUT o2/A/F data alone is not the BEst way to Tune WOT conditions. Seeing how they all relate is a good thing. Keep in mind things can get sketchy prety quick. and 02's are a reading AFTER the combustion cycle. (better have a quick Sample Rate) .

I've learned it to be Most importantly to look for KNOCK and timing REtards (WHich by moving the flame front further out the Ex Valvle has a direct effect is the EGT and watching for spikes in it. Tels you of your Detonating/preignition or Knocking from running LEAN. Determining what A/F, what EGT what TIming and @ what psi=lb/min per PRM your car is happiest at is the KEY fellas.

Thanks for your input, i'm got a better idea know what he's getting into in turboing an otherwise N/A car. Same stuff I deal with, just that the DSM has had 12 years of development of the afterarket tuning devices and things are more clearly defined for us.

Looks like at this point to support a Turbo on his car, i'd use an AFPR, 450cc inj. pump, Datalogger and a mild Piggyback or something like E-manage.

What upgraded or modified MAF's are being used w/the p5?

 

[perfworks]

The voltages of the o2...I never really thought about using that to tune. Sweet! "

Yes you can use o2 Voltage to monitor your A/F condition. BUT o2/A/F data alone is not the BEst way to Tune WOT conditions. Seeing how they all relate is a good thing. Keep in mind things can get sketchy prety quick. and 02's are a reading AFTER the combustion cycle. (better have a quick Sample Rate) .

I've learned it to be Most importantly to look for KNOCK and timing REtards (WHich by moving the flame front further out the Ex Valvle has a direct effect is the EGT and watching for spikes in it. Tels you of your Detonating/preignition or Knocking from running LEAN. Determining what A/F, what EGT what TIming and @ what psi=lb/min per PRM your car is happiest at is the KEY fellas.

Thanks for your input, i'm got a better idea know what he's getting into in turboing an otherwise N/A car. Same stuff I deal with, just that the DSM has had 12 years of development of the afterarket tuning devices and things are more clearly defined for us.

Looks like at this point to support a Turbo on his car, i'd use an AFPR, 450cc inj. pump, Datalogger and a mild Piggyback or something like E-manage.

What upgraded or modified MAF's are being used w/the p5?

Welcome to the board DSM. You'll find this protege engine isnt a Mitsu in any respect.
The ECU doesnt have anywhere near the knock feedback that a DSM or mitsu may have. Good info you posted but you'll find the adaptive strategies on the Protege are not kind to any sort of piggybacks.
Also your O2 readings, you are right, are not the only thing to look at. As you have pointed out on your previous posts. Especially a narrow band O2 found on the Protege.
Let us know how your project turns out.

 

[DSMer]

Will Do. I expected as much. I'll do some further research on the Prot ECU and keep you guys posted. Beleive me we are in a constant battle against the stock ECU as well. Both have thier limits and we often go standalone FMU's or run programable chips to get around the WALLS> Feel free to drop into www.dsmtuners.com. Always good videos and FI info.

 

[perfworks]

Will Do. I expected as much. I'll do some further research on the Prot ECU and keep you guys posted. Beleive me we are in a constant battle against the stock ECU as well. Both have thier limits and we often go standalone FMU's or run programable chips to get around the WALLS> Feel free to drop into www.dsmtuners.com. Always good videos and FI info.

Gotcha
I know what you mean . I own a 99 spyder and EVO8 I know all about the ecu. But a MUCH better FI setup IMHO.
Hit me up some time. Ill show you some pics of both cars.

 

[Kooldino]

But the T25 isn't doing at redline what a T3 is"

Hence.. "low CFM of course. I got rid of mine as quickly as possible

Only with a slammin ass intercooler."

Right..I'm asuming if you have a TBO you have an IC. WHy anyone would try yo run any turbo w/o an intercooler is beyond me.

Not just an intercooler...a damn good one is my point.

"
Look at some dynos and calculate the lb/mins. It should pretty much be a direct calculation"

how so? with what equation? Heres asomehting I've learned
My Big 28 is a .48 TRIM, @ 14psi it flows 26lb/min. I can get that data from my logger in an instant, Your ECU gives yuo this info you just gotta go it. Via Data logging I can see throughout the RPM band where I need fuel or have to much. I'm just passing along some info here, I can't stress enough that if you can get at this info your tuning experience will be alot easier.

I've seen the calc before, but don't know it. Basically X lbs/min of air through your motor = Y HP.