Eibach Install Without Spring Compressor

[goldwing2000]

Alignment is much cheaper than tires.

True, true...

 

[stingfish]

Bad shocks (they're actually struts) on a brand new car???

Ummm... ok. (scratch) (boom03)

I don't mean they're blown... just not up to your expectations.... a GEO Metro feels twitchy but a set of Bilsteins and some Eibachs would fix that too.

 

[stingfish]

Nice... (boom07)

Seriously though they are different lengths... maybe not enough to be visible in the pic you sent but DEFINITELY enough to throw toe off one side by 1/16" and the other by 1/8". 1/8" is a huge difference.

 

[stingfish]

Get an alignment. I waited 2 weeks to get mine done and totally wore my tires quite excessively. Car drove straight as hell and handled fine but my toe was not even close. It was off by different amounts left and right but this may have been the case prior to the spring install.

Alignment is much cheaper than tires.

Thank you GBourdon!

Goldwing2000... I rest my case... I'll leave you alone now... no hard feelings here. (cheers)

 

[goldwing2000]

Seriously though they are different lengths... maybe not enough to be visible in the pic you sent but DEFINITELY enough to throw toe off one side by 1/16" and the other by 1/8". 1/8" is a huge difference.

One of these days I'm going to measure them and prove you wrong. But for now, it just doesn't matter. (shrug)

 

[goldwing2000]

Thank you GBourdon!

Goldwing2000... I rest my case... I'll leave you alone now... no hard feelings here. (cheers)

I'll just say this: all cars are not created equal. They are all slightly different. I'll leave it at that.

 

[goldwing2000]

Toe out is typically used in rear wheel drive cars... toe in is typically used in front drive cars... at least when we're talking performance driving on a track... your front drive car being 1/16" toe out each side will be 1/8" or more each side when it's driving down the road... not good. You're correct, toe out will make a car more stable, but this is a front drive car so it pushes through the turns if anything...

I just re-read your post... you got it completely backwards. Read the Tire Rack write-up again.

A rear-wheel drive vehicle "pushes" the front axle's tires as they roll along the road. Tire rolling resistance causes a little drag resulting in rearward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Because of this, most rear-wheel drive vehicles use some positive toe-in to compensate for the movement, enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Conversely, a front-wheel drive vehicle "pulls" the vehicle through the front axle, resulting in forward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Therefore most front-wheel drive vehicles use some negative toe-out to compensate for the movement, again enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

If you're going to try to school somebody, make sure you are presenting the proper information.

 

[stingfish]

I just re-read your post... you got it completely backwards. Read the Tire Rack write-up again.



If you're going to try to school somebody, make sure you are presenting the proper information.

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.

 

[goldwing2000]

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.

Dude... what the hell are you talking about?? You just said "toe out is toe in" and "toe in is toe out"!! That make no sense whatsoever! It's like saying right is left and left is right.

An axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge.
And I have my ASE certification in front ends and suspension, thankyouverymuch.

Like I said before, stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about!

 

[stingfish]

Dude... what the hell are you talking about?? You just said "toe out is toe in" and "toe in is toe out"!! That make no sense whatsoever! It's like saying right is left and left is right.

An axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge.
And I have my ASE certification in front ends and suspension, thankyouverymuch.

Like I said before, stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about!

I will repeat myself... in the world of performance suspension tuning...

toe in = toe in

toe out = toe out

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

I am done with this tread... turning notification off.

 

[Loose]

Wtf

I will repeat myself... in the world of performance suspension tuning...

toe in = toe in

toe out = toe out

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

I am done with this tread... turning notification off.

Look, I'm a motor guy. The way I have always understood it was as GW has layed it out. I'm alittle confused as to NEGATIVE and POSITIVE toe....I always thought it was just IN or OUT.?. (bang)

 

[goldwing2000]

Exactly... wtf.

"Positive toe" is toe in.

"Negative toe" is toe out.

"Negative toe in" and "Positive toe out" do not exist except as figments of stingfish's imagination.

I wonder what color the sky is in his "world of performance suspension tuning". You'll also notice that he completely contradicted his own post.

negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out.

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

This is auto mechanics, not english grammar. Double-negatives don't apply!

p.s. I've been ASE certified in steering and suspension since 1995 (re-certified in 2000). The rules haven't changed in that time.

 

[Loose]

I got it.....

"Positive toe" is toe in.

"Negative toe" is toe out.

OIC, that makes perfect sense. What was up w/ the (enguard). He was very defensive. Maybe not held enough as a child? J/K

 

[goldwing2000]

OIC, that makes perfect sense. What was up w/ the (enguard). He was very defensive. Maybe not held enough as a child? J/K

Just afraid to admit that he was wrong, I suspect. (shrug) I think he reads a lot of web sites and thinks he knows a lot about cars but has no real-world experience.

It's sad, really. I wonder how many people he has led astray with unintentional misinformation. *sigh*

 

[stingfish]

Ok Goldwing... honestly... being a Moderator and having a signature with the words ASE Certified in it doesn't prove to anyone that you are the god of automotive intelligence. I do not doubt your ability to turn a wrench, the only thing I doubt is your ability to accept someone might now a little more than you do. Both of us are right, but in this case I just happen to bring a little more knowledge to the table. I sketched out what I think you are confused about... perhaps it'll sink in a little better. I am in no way saying toe in is simply toe out. When you look at BOTH WHEELS TOGETHER, that's when you define positive or negative toe. Example... if BOTH wheels are toed out, this is referred to as Negative Toe In or Negative Toe - the OPPOSITE of Toe In.

As you grow as a mechanic (we all do), this will likely be something you will one day say "man - he was right about that". I'm not going to claim I am a know it all or have less or more experience than you... what I can tell you is that I have been tuning suspensions for race car teams for almost 20 years now and this is one subject I know well. Perhaps if I would have followed in your footsteps and put my qualifications in my signature, you'd have a little more respect for someone that might know a little more than you do.

Notifications turned back on... be the moderator you should be and lock this hijacked thread already instead of trying to get the last word in. On the other hand, anyone that puts big air horns on a 4 cylinder Mazda 3 just to "scare the bejesus out of" soccer moms must be desperate to be the king of something.

Here's that sketch...

 

[goldwing2000]

Ok, Stingfish, I'll play your little game.

Sketch 1: Yep
Sketch 2: Yep
Sketch 3: Yep
Sketch 4: Nope
Sketch 5: Maybe

I am not confused about anything. I fully understand the idea that you are attempting to convey but the point I'm trying to make is that the terms you are using are improper and misleading.

Sketch four would not be called Negative toe-in. It would be referred to as simply negative toe, toe-out or negative toe-out if you wanted to get wordy.
Positive and negative toe do not change names whether you are talking about one wheel or two.
One wheel toed in is positive toe.
Both wheels toed in is positive toe.
One wheel toed out is negative toe.
Both wheels toed out is negative toe.

Positive Toe and Positive Toe-out are NOT interchangeable terms
Negative Toe and Negative Toe-in are NOT interchangeable terms.

Positive Toe-out and Negative Toe-in are self-contradictory terms and do not exist in proper diagnosis and discussion of steering systems. Maybe race cars use different terms for some reason (I dont know why they would) but since were talking about street cars and not race cars, thats a moot point.
I have no doubt that all your "race buddies" use the terms but that does not make it correct. I've known a lot of race mechanics who could turn a wrench like nobody's business but they couldn't explain what they were doing to someone else if their life depended on it.
Unfortunately, since this is a discussion forum, being able to properly convey a message is paramount and presenting improper information (whether intentional or not) can confuse a great number of people.

I say maybe on sketch 5 because it could also be a case of left wheel toed out and right wheel toed in with a perfectly straight steering wheel. Steering wheel position is independent of total toe.

I never claimed that ... being a Moderator and having a signature with the words ASE Certified... proves anything. I let the fact that I do not present erroneous information take care of anything that needs to be proven. If I don't know something or I am not 100% positive about it, then I have no trouble saying so.

Oh, and I like how you accuse me of "trying to get the last word in" when you return to a thread you have admittedly abandoned just to get the last word in yourself. Nice misdirection.

Also, how can you consider this thread hijacked? Hijacking a thread, by definition, would be changing the subject on somebody else's thread. I started the thread and it the entire discussion has been about suspension and wheel alignment.

And yes, I AM trying to be "king of something" by putting air horns on my car.
King of Not Getting Run Off The Road By Morons In SUVs.
If you hadn't taken my words out of context, you would have realized this. The exact phrase was, "... scare the bejesus out of some oblivious soccer mom who dares trespass in my lane..."
I am very cautious about using my horns and only do so when absolutely necessary.

If you wish to continue this conversation, be my guest. Although, you should really come up with better supporting documentation then, "because I said so."

 

[stingfish]

i just did a search for negative toe in... it seems as though the only way I will be able to prove my point is for it to come from the mouth of some other expert... i have no clue who these guys are but it's the first thing that came up... it's there in black and white... 2nd section... Wheel Alignment 19.95? 3rd Sentence.

Summary: When both front tires of a vehicle are pointed away from "each other they are referred to as having a negative toe-in angle."

http://www.samscars.com/sam-2-1.htm

Oh, and these guys are NOT my "race buddies".

 

[Loose]

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.

Above + earlier diagram =

The first thing I learned from the first college I went to is "don't trust anything on the internet" class: Computers 101

Refer to positive toe in is toe out. and diagram #3 =??????????

Sorry stingfish, I think you maybe tied with your own words here.

 

[goldwing2000]

i have no clue who these guys are but it's the first thing that came up... it's there in black and white... 2nd section... Wheel Alignment 19.95? 3rd Sentence.

Yeah, I have no idea who those guys are either. Judging by their web site, it just looks like some used car dealer and repair shop in Massachusetts.

I congratulate you on finding someone to coroborate your story but I would hardly consider "Sam Giammalvo's Auto Sales & Service Inc." as expert testimony. I never said people don't use the terms, just that they are not the proper terms.

Here, I can look things up on the internet, too:
http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm (the section on Toe)

Toe-in means that the fronts of the tires are closer to each other than the rears. Toe-out is just the opposite.

http://www.nangar.com/midas/alignment.htm (under Alignment 101)

Toe - The distance between the front of the wheels compared with the back of the wheels
Toe-In - Wheels are closer together at the front than at the rear
Toe-Out - Wheels are further apart at the front than at the rear

http://www.aftermarketbusiness.com/aftermarketbusiness/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=3333

If the front of the tires points toward the centerline of the vehicle, with both tires aiming inboard, this is called "toe-in," because the tires on that axle are aiming inboard. If the front of the tires aim in an outboard direction, away from the centerline of the vehicle, this is referred to as "toe-out."

http://www.specprod.com/TECH_DIR/SPCFundamentals.pdf

Toe-in is the measurement in fractions of an inch, millimeters or
decimal of degrees that the tires are closer together in the front than they are in the back. Toe-out is the same measurement, except the tires are further apart in the front than in the rear.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030813.htm

Toe-In is when the front of the wheels are closer together than the rear of the wheels on the same axle. Toe-Out is when the front of the wheels are farther apart than the rear of the wheels on the same axle.

http://beluap.tripod.com/crash5.html

Toe in is recorded as positive toe angle and toe out is negative.

ooo... here's a good one:
http://www.aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#Front toe

Toe-in, or positive toe, is defined as the front of the tires being closer together than the rear of the tires. Toe-out, or negative toe, is when the rear of the tires are closer together than the front of the tires.

And on and on and on...

 

[stingfish]

How are you any different from a little shop in MA? I appreciate the lengths you went to in finding some alignment info for me... but nothing I've said contradicts anything in those articles. What we are arguing about here now is your inability to believe... Toe Out = Negative Toe In.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/80_96/7166.html

2nd reply...

toe-out, aka negative toe-in

http://www.humvee.net/hid/susp/string.html

Section - Measuring the Toe-in, Front:

If the string is not in contact with the sidewall at the rear of the front tire, then that tire has negative toe-in.

You can also think of negative toe-in as the rear of the tires are "toed in".

http://eaglewoman.racesimcentral.com/gpl/grehelp/glossary.htm

Negative toe-in, also called "toe out", means that the front of the wheel points outward

Notice the term in the glossary above... TOE-IN (Not just Toe)... so we have Positive Toe-In and Negative Toe-In... Positive Toe-In = Toe In... Negative Toe-In = Toe Out. Confusing yes and that's why it's not often referenced as such, but it is a legitimate alignment definition.


Honestly dude... when you go to get recertified in 2005, ask your ASE instructor if Toe Out = Negative Toe In... he will set you straight. Otherwise, you are a fool to waste any more time on me or this thread.