DSC Off - Some Observations

[Metro Gray]

Do you know what the word "placebo" means? It sounds like everything you are discussing is in your head, because quite frankly, without wheel spin being detected, the DSC does nothing at all. It is not some all-encompassing throttle control system that alters fuel trims at all points in driving. It engages in very select, specific situations after very specific, select conditions have been met. If you are not spinning your tires, and you are not seeing the DSC light blinking at you on the dash, the DSC is doing nothing. You might as well be blaming your problems on gremlins.

Well if that is your argument that is fine.

I've owned and driven extensively the following 5spd cars without any jerky shifting problems, tranny problems or premature tire wear due to spinning

190E Mercedes
VW Golf
Porsche 928

I have also let others drive the speed and didn't mention anything about the DSC. Everyone had a great deal of difficult shifting the car including some which exlcusively drive 5spds.

I don't think I'm creating this.....

 

[HOBDisease]

Do you know what the word "placebo" means? It sounds like everything you are discussing is in your head, because quite frankly, without wheel spin being detected, the DSC does nothing at all. It is not some all-encompassing throttle control system that alters fuel trims at all points in driving. It engages in very select, specific situations after very specific, select conditions have been met. If you are not spinning your tires, and you are not seeing the DSC light blinking at you on the dash, the DSC is doing nothing. You might as well be blaming your problems on gremlins.

+1 (iagree)

Btw, pushing the dsc button after the car is started WILL turn dsc AND tc off. Try it. Push the button then dump the clutch at 5000rpm, then tell me your opinion.

 

[GoFast]

Well if that is your argument that is fine.

I've owned and driven extensively the following 5spd cars without any jerky shifting problems, tranny problems or premature tire wear due to spinning

190E Mercedes
VW Golf
Porsche 928

I have also let others drive the speed and didn't mention anything about the DSC. Everyone had a great deal of difficult shifting the car including some which exlcusively drive 5spds.

I don't think I'm creating this.....

i agree that i dont think you are creating this either, but i dont think it is the dsc either. I think it is just the way the power is delivered in this car. DSC has no role in this until the tires lose traction or your steering wheel turns past a certain angle

 

[happy and angry]

Having driven manuals all my driving life, with hundreds of thousands of miles under my belt, I can honestly say that this car is difficult to launch smoothly. Everyone who owns one aggrees and there have been many threads on the subject. The car is hard to drive smooth if you're not paying attention. I have noticed no improvement of this behavior with DSC on or off. None. Zero. Zip. I have, however, noticed significant improvement of this behaviour with smoother throttle and clutch imputs as well as practice.

The jerkiness is more likely a result of the relatively short range of clutch travel involved in clutch engagement/disengagement, the aggressive nature of the clutch engagement, the sensitivity of the throttle pedal, and a tendency of drivers who have botched a launch to dump the clutch or come off throttle (leading to a jerky start or a bogged start) depending on how they've screwed up. In either case, I think the DSC on/off issue you describe from a launch is a bit of a boogeyman. If you're not launching hard enough to get wheel spin, the DSC is doing nothing at all, and your bogged and jerky starts are a result of poor technique. You can obviously launch the car smoothly, but I honestly think the whole needing the DSC off to do it thing is in your head.

 

[tiagotiago]

Its not difficult to find the gears or move the shifter, it has more to do with the cars capabilities. Power delivery is abrupt and the DSC cuts in to help control the spin almost immediately from what I can feel. Problem is that the clutch isn't always fully engaged when the DSC cuts in which makes the take off and shifting jerky.

Since I am finally getting really comfortable with the car I decided to turn the DSC off (not completely) by pushing the button only after the car us running. I've experimented with this over the past 2 weeks and I have noticed that the jerky shifting is nearly gone and the car feels much more natural to drive. At first I thought it was mental but after a few drives where I forgot to turn it off I noticed the jerky shifting almost immediately so it really does make a difference. Wheelspin is obviously increased but not dramatically on dry roads and I actually don't mind it.

Has anyone else noticed this dramatic difference with DSC off?

I did find initially that this car was a bit tricky to shift smoothly, in comparison to other manuals I've driven (my dad also agreed with this). But as far as DSC not letting us be, we have not had such a problem. I can't guess what's going on with you/your car that's causing this behaviour, other than maybe your timing during the pedal dance is a bit off; but I insist that it's hard to guess if we're not driving along with you.

Now sorry if you already posted this but does this happen all the time or only on full or part throttle? In my experience TC will cut me if I'm doing an agressive launch and my tires are dirty/dusty and cold(this is just an agressive launch for a bit of fun, no serious launch for racing purposes) After a few runs they'll grip very nicely and rolling on the power will avoid any electronic nanny intervention. But that's about it.

I always drive with the DSC/TC on, and it has saved my butt one time, no questions about it.

 

[240ka]

Well I have to agree so it must be in my head as well. Fact is, I've been a lot more conscious of my shifting over the last few months since I've been leaving dsc on b/c shifting has become one of my most unpleasing experiences with my MS3.
I've had it since only having 42miles on the clock, I'm now pushing 11k.

Before now, I would always turn dsc off everytime I drove my car and I wasn't nearly as conscious of my shifting as i have been over the past few months ...so its in my head too

 

[happy and angry]

Yes, it is. Finally, consensus in our times.

 

[240ka]

Ill say one thing. Getting smooth shifts in this car is done by engaging the clutch really low. Id say between a 1/8 and 1/3 from the floor

 

[08ms34208]

I have never had the problem with jerky or bogged starts. Maybe a few times, I understand why everyone says it though, its a lot different then all my other cars (2 Honda accords, 1 Acura integra) but for me its nothing unpleasant. My friends do though have the problem when they drive it. hmmm.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

Like anything you get used to it

I have never had the problem with jerky or bogged starts. Maybe a few times, I understand why everyone says it though, its a lot different then all my other cars (2 Honda accords, 1 Acura integra) but for me its nothing unpleasant. My friends do though have the problem when they drive it. hmmm.

I used to think the MS3's clutch was finicky but after 2 years there are very few times when the car is jerky from a stop. When it is it's usually a bonehead move on my part. I also drive my Wife's Mz5 regularly and find that despite the difference in clutch action I never have a problem reacclimating to the MS3 or not modulating the clutch well on the lighter Mz5.

Like riding a bike it takes time to learn, but once you do muscle memory and technique comes into play and the actions you once thought odd or difficult become second nature and your body will easily adjust without even thinking about it.

 

[BillTheCat]

I used to think the MS3's clutch was finicky but after 2 years there are very few times when the car is jerky from a stop. When it is it's usually a bonehead move on my part. I also drive my Wife's Mz5 regularly and find that despite the difference in clutch action I never have a problem reacclimating to the MS3 or not modulating the clutch well on the lighter Mz5.

Like riding a bike it takes time to learn, but once you do muscle memory and technique comes into play and the actions you once thought odd or difficult become second nature and your body will easily adjust without even thinking about it.

I think the MS3 clutch is absolutely finicky. The thing is, you do learn to compensate for that over time. It's not that the clutch isn't actually grabby or finicky, but that you learn to counter its quirks.

Back on the original topic, though, I think I'm going to try turning the DSC off when the weather is nice, just to see if there's any noticeable difference. In my previous car (MINI Cooper S), the DSC was so intrusive that it would cause an extreme stumble/bog down in 1st & sometimes 2nd gear on a hard launch. So I installed an aftermarket circuit board to automatically disable the DSC every time the ignition was turned on. Made the car MUCH more driveable.

 

[RC08MS3]

to kinda go with this topic(well not really), DSC has nothing to do with wheel spin, thats what TCS does. TCS is Traction Control System, and DSC is Dynamic Stability Control. TCS does wheel spin, and DSC is what causes your motor to bog and feel powerless in a sharp turn, its designed to make sure you dont over or under steer, or roll the car for that matter.

the comment made before that says if you press the DSC once it will turn both off, not too sure about that, will have to test.

 

[coyfish]

Yep in normal driving I don't feel a difference with DSC on / off. When im gunning it though I definately feel the DSC on the launch and 1st-2nd shift.

 

[240ka]

to kinda go with this topic(well not really), DSC has nothing to do with wheel spin, thats what TCS does. TCS is Traction Control System, and DSC is Dynamic Stability Control. TCS does wheel spin, and DSC is what causes your motor to bog and feel powerless in a sharp turn, its designed to make sure you dont over or under steer, or roll the car for that matter.

the comment made before that says if you press the DSC once it will turn both off, not too sure about that, will have to test.

there is no TCS button. there is a DSC button. so of course we are refering to TCS being disabled when we turn the DSC "oFF"

 

[RC08MS3]

there is no TCS button. there is a DSC button. so of course we are refering to TCS being disabled when we turn the DSC "oFF"

thanks i own the car, i understand that, what alot of people dont understand is the difference between the two. Everyone keeps saying DSC causes you to not spin, when in reality it dosent, TCS does. DSC does something completely different.

 

[mazdaspeedster3]

TCS: Traction Control System
DCS: Dynamic Stability Control

 

[60181]

My opinion after many years of driving manuals and autos with and without safety systems like these is that on the MS3:

1. I find on dry pavement I much prefer to have Traction Control disabled. I can feel TC kicking in during even heavy but not necessarily full WOT runs in 1st and 2nd gears. I'm not "launching it" off the line, but under hard throttle it does kick in. I usually reactivate it if I'm on the highway.
   
2. The clutch is definitely not my favorite. It's either on or off and has a very short engagement point. Sucks really but it doesn't cause me to dislike the car. There are way better systems though. I'm spoiled as my S2000 was near perfect.
   
3. The MS3 is easy to drive hard and hard to drive easy. Simple as that. I find that to granny start is near impossible without really focusing on it. It just simply responds better with more throttle where with all my other cars, I could crawl away without any issue.

 

[BillTheCat]

My opinion after many years of driving manuals and autos with and without safety systems like these is that on the MS3:

1. I find on dry pavement I much prefer to have Traction Control disabled. I can feel TC kicking in during even heavy but not necessarily full WOT runs in 1st and 2nd gears. I'm not "launching it" off the line, but under hard throttle it does kick in. I usually reactivate it if I'm on the highway.
   
2. The clutch is definitely not my favorite. It's either on or off and has a very short engagement point. Sucks really but it doesn't cause me to dislike the car. There are way better systems though. I'm spoiled as my S2000 was near perfect.
   
3. The MS3 is easy to drive hard and hard to drive easy. Simple as that. I find that to granny start is near impossible without really focusing on it. It just simply responds better with more throttle where with all my other cars, I could crawl away without any issue.

QFE. Well said, on all points. I only disabled the DSC for a couple of short drives so far, but my initial impression is that the car is smoother with it disabled. I'll make up my mind about it after I get a chance to make direct comparisons of similar drives with & without DSC.

 

[240ka]

so metrogray and myself were correct when we said disabling TCS makes the car a bit easier to drive smoothly.

 

[happy and angry]

No, you aren't.

Disabling DSC/TCS just prevents your errant, hyperactive right foot from causing the throttle plate to close when you are launching your vehicle. Stop launching it hard enough for the DSC to engage, it's not that damn hard. Try out the driver-mod, it would help you, too.