Metro Gray
Member
Very well said and agree 100%.
My 928 takes five minutes to readjust to and its a dogleg with a really notchy shifter.
DSC Off - Some Observations
- Thread starter Metro Gray
- Start date
Very well said and agree 100%.
My 928 takes five minutes to readjust to and its a dogleg with a really notchy shifter.
funksilver07
Member
- :
- 2007 Sunlight Silver Mazdaspeed 3 GT
For those of us who are capable drivers and prefer to control our cars as opposed to the car taking control, DSC off is the only way to go with this car. The only time I use it is on really wet rainy bad weather days, and even then I don't always use it. I will drive according to the weather conditions. Not to say it doesn't have a place in the control of your car but, for the most part it's not something I use, want, or need for my daily driving experience...
happy and angry
Member
I am going to try this one more time because I think it's important that people actually understand how their damn cars work.
DSC: Dynamic Stability Control - as the name implies, it is controlling something (stability) that is dynamic.
TCS: Traction Control System - as the name implies, it is controlling something (traction).
When you are at a stop, you are not moving. You are static, unchanging. There is nothing dynamic about sitting at a stop light. Your tires are solidly planted, not spinning, and there is no need for traction to be controlled.
Unless you are launching hard enough to spin the tires to engage the TCS, and have the wheel cranked hard left or right when you do it to cause the DSC system to kick in, your nannies do nothing. Nothing. Not a god damn blessed thing. Until you exceed forward or lateral grip, neither system does anything at all.
This car is difficult to drive slowly and smoothly and we all know it. Like most drivers, when we can't drive something smoothly when we are used to being able to drive anything smoothly, we assume the problem is with the car and not the coordination of our two feet. We look for things that we think must be making us drive rough, because there is no way it is actually our fault. And of course, we are lucky enough to have a scapegoat with electronic systems in place to control traction and stability, so we figure they must be the problem. Even though all rational thought tells us the systems are doing nothing from a stop trying to smoothly launch the car, that the problem is actually us, the driver. We get nervous when the systems are on, blaming them for our mistakes, we tighten up, we don't relax, and we stress ourselves out about it. We over think the problem, and the problem persists. So we turn off the TCS/DSC, and that weight, that stress, is gone. We've found the problem alright, and we are that much more confident and relaxed behind the wheel and we start being smooth again. Clearly, it was all the TCS/DSC.
This car launches the same for me with nannies on or off. Sometimes I have a bad day and it's a bit jerky, sometimes I don't. At least I'm realistic enough to accept that the jerky days are me, same as the good days are me. Being realistic about my skills behind the wheel are what allow me to grow as a driver, with or without traction and stability control systems in place.
But hey, if everyone else wants to blame the evil spooky gremlin boogeyman electronics that aren't even engaging during your launches, go ahead. Be crazy.
DSC: Dynamic Stability Control - as the name implies, it is controlling something (stability) that is dynamic.
TCS: Traction Control System - as the name implies, it is controlling something (traction).
When you are at a stop, you are not moving. You are static, unchanging. There is nothing dynamic about sitting at a stop light. Your tires are solidly planted, not spinning, and there is no need for traction to be controlled.
Unless you are launching hard enough to spin the tires to engage the TCS, and have the wheel cranked hard left or right when you do it to cause the DSC system to kick in, your nannies do nothing. Nothing. Not a god damn blessed thing. Until you exceed forward or lateral grip, neither system does anything at all.
This car is difficult to drive slowly and smoothly and we all know it. Like most drivers, when we can't drive something smoothly when we are used to being able to drive anything smoothly, we assume the problem is with the car and not the coordination of our two feet. We look for things that we think must be making us drive rough, because there is no way it is actually our fault. And of course, we are lucky enough to have a scapegoat with electronic systems in place to control traction and stability, so we figure they must be the problem. Even though all rational thought tells us the systems are doing nothing from a stop trying to smoothly launch the car, that the problem is actually us, the driver. We get nervous when the systems are on, blaming them for our mistakes, we tighten up, we don't relax, and we stress ourselves out about it. We over think the problem, and the problem persists. So we turn off the TCS/DSC, and that weight, that stress, is gone. We've found the problem alright, and we are that much more confident and relaxed behind the wheel and we start being smooth again. Clearly, it was all the TCS/DSC.
This car launches the same for me with nannies on or off. Sometimes I have a bad day and it's a bit jerky, sometimes I don't. At least I'm realistic enough to accept that the jerky days are me, same as the good days are me. Being realistic about my skills behind the wheel are what allow me to grow as a driver, with or without traction and stability control systems in place.
But hey, if everyone else wants to blame the evil spooky gremlin boogeyman electronics that aren't even engaging during your launches, go ahead. Be crazy.
why do some of you think we are roasting our tires? the only time i burn out is when i go to the track.
im simply at a loss on how you are connecting the dots and the result is us spinning tires.
if that was the case dont you think we would leave TCS "ON" to counter-act that problem?
how about, instead of knocking what more than a couple people agree on, try it yourself for a couple week and draw your own conclusion.
the car behaves differently with TCS off vs on. as others have mentioned. when there is no rain in the forecast, my TCS OFF
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happy and angry
Member
Jesus, man, you are thick.
I don't think you are roasting your tires. In fact, your tires not being roasted on your launch is central to my point. Without being at that point of tire spin, the TSC/DCS systems do nothing. Absolutely dick all. They do not engage, and without engaging, they change nothing about the car.
I don't find it particularly unique or surprising to find multiple people agreeing that the reason they can't launch smoothly in first is because of the boogeyman in the ECU. Personal responsibility is conspicuously absent in many car enthusiasts. Same with reading comprehension, apparently. Did you miss the part where I said (and I quote):
"This car launches the same for me with nannies on or off. Sometimes I have a bad day and it's a bit jerky, sometimes I don't. At least I'm realistic enough to accept that the jerky days are me, same as the good days are me. Being realistic about my skills behind the wheel are what allow me to grow as a driver, with or without traction and stability control systems in place."
Yes, the car behaves differently with TCS on vs off. No s***. That's a brilliant observation you've made right there. But it's also a stupidly general point that completely ignores how the hell those systems change the dynamics of the car and under which driving situations they actually do something. High speed corners and driving out of the apex, sure. Understeering your way towards a curb when you take a corner too hot and tap the brake to get the front end to bite a bit more, fine. Mid-corner off-throttle induced oversteer, definitely. From a stop, though? Are you confused by the meanings of the word "Traction" and "Dynamic" perhaps?
Now, what I want you to do is try and think through the situation being described in this thread, IE: a smooth launch, and come up with a theory for me as to HOW the DSC/TCS systems affect the cars behaviour. Keep in mind the following important details.
- the DSC/TCS systems does nothing if you aren't moving/spinning tires
- the launches (from a standstill, when you aren't moving) being described are slow, controlled, normal, and the goal is to be smooth (IE: without spinning tires)
Give me a reasonable explanation as to why you think throttle and clutch behaviour become easier to manage in the situation being described when two electronic systems are turned off. Again, keeping in mind that in the situation being described, the two systems are not even engaging (one might say, turned off).
So please, tell me just what it is you think those systems do when the car is at a stop to make it behave differently?
first, your long post(s) are falling on deaf ears. including mine, reasoning being is that you are addressing something we arent.
you keep talking about "LAUNCHING" this has nothing to do with launching the car.
this threads purpose is to state that people have noticed that the car is eaiser to shift when TCS is off. simply cruising the car isnt as annoying from the stand point of shifting since it seems to be easier with TCS off
that is the only purpose. when i get in my car just to drive to the store or anywhere, i turn my TCS OFF b/c of the fact shifting is less of a pain when TCS is disengaged. when the is bad weather, my TCS is engaged. other than that. **** TCS
but again, this thread has nothing to do with driving the vehicle hard one bit
you keep talking about "LAUNCHING" this has nothing to do with launching the car.
this threads purpose is to state that people have noticed that the car is eaiser to shift when TCS is off. simply cruising the car isnt as annoying from the stand point of shifting since it seems to be easier with TCS off
that is the only purpose. when i get in my car just to drive to the store or anywhere, i turn my TCS OFF b/c of the fact shifting is less of a pain when TCS is disengaged. when the is bad weather, my TCS is engaged. other than that. **** TCS
but again, this thread has nothing to do with driving the vehicle hard one bit
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Retrobmx63
Member
- :
- 08 Mazdaspeed3 - Black Mica
happy and angry
Member
... okay, since I'm not that interested in devolving this into a discussion about first and second gears being the gears that jerk most when shifting since you'll probably miss the point, I have to ask: in what way would the TSC/DCS systems alter how natural the shifting feels in theis (or any other) car?
I understand that this thread has nothing to do with driving the vehicle hard, mind you. That's actually the entire point. You are complaining that the DSC/TCS systems mess with your regular every day sedate cruising and trying to drive smoothly, when the DSC/TCS systems do nothing to the car unless you are driving hard. The DSC/TCS systems do nothing to your car unless you are driving hard. You are not driving hard. Ergo the DSC/TCS systems are doing nothing to your car to cause the vehicle to shift more "annoyingly."
But anyway, what's your theory, little buddy? You got one for me yet? You think of anything? I notice you've completely failed to address this, so I'll ask again: How do the stability control system or traction system affect the throttle and/or clutch of the vehicle? What possible explanation for the lack of smoothness/ease of shifting do you have that you can reasonably attribute to two electric systems that do nothing unless the vehicle is being driven hard?
I understand that this thread has nothing to do with driving the vehicle hard, mind you. That's actually the entire point. You are complaining that the DSC/TCS systems mess with your regular every day sedate cruising and trying to drive smoothly, when the DSC/TCS systems do nothing to the car unless you are driving hard. The DSC/TCS systems do nothing to your car unless you are driving hard. You are not driving hard. Ergo the DSC/TCS systems are doing nothing to your car to cause the vehicle to shift more "annoyingly."
But anyway, what's your theory, little buddy? You got one for me yet? You think of anything? I notice you've completely failed to address this, so I'll ask again: How do the stability control system or traction system affect the throttle and/or clutch of the vehicle? What possible explanation for the lack of smoothness/ease of shifting do you have that you can reasonably attribute to two electric systems that do nothing unless the vehicle is being driven hard?
lol, wow this thread trashed fast, i dont think he needs a theory to state he thinks its easier to drive the car with the DSC/TCS off, its his opinion, get over it. he simply asked if anyone else noticed a difference, not if you had a theory about how it dosent make it easier. and FYI, the systems are not only ment for driving hard, they are ment for conditional weather also, I.E. rain/ice/sleet blah blah, just incase you dont know what that is
happy and angry
Member
You will note, of course, that rain, ice, sleet and snow make it easier for the vehicle to behave as if under hard driving conditions?
I actually think it's an entirely relevant question given the almost entirely ridiculous nature of the complaint at hand. How do two systems that use the brakes and the closing of the throttle plate under severe driving conditions alter the driving/shifting characteristics of the car under normal driving conditions?
How can so many people be missing the point here? Under normal driving conditions the DSC/TSC systems do nothing at all. Blaming these systems for altering the driving characteristics of the car when they are not doing anything at all to the car is retarded.
I actually think it's an entirely relevant question given the almost entirely ridiculous nature of the complaint at hand. How do two systems that use the brakes and the closing of the throttle plate under severe driving conditions alter the driving/shifting characteristics of the car under normal driving conditions?
How can so many people be missing the point here? Under normal driving conditions the DSC/TSC systems do nothing at all. Blaming these systems for altering the driving characteristics of the car when they are not doing anything at all to the car is retarded.
BillTheCat
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3 Sport
Happy... allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute. I don't want to argue with anyone, but I think we should be keeping open minds here.
I understand your point entirely. But there's a grey area here, too. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the TCS in the 1st generation new MINI would kick in well before wheel spin actually began. There was a 2-year investigation by MINI USA to resolve the "stumble/bog down on launch" issue that was was reported by thousands of MINI owners- even ones who weren't driving all that hard. There were times when I nearly caused accidents because of the severity of the bogging in 1st/2nd gears as I pulled into traffic. Disabling TCS all but completely stopped the stumble. My local MINI dealer's lead mechanic freely admitted that disabling the TCS would allow for much smoother, harder launches.
Many TCS systems actually kick in before whelespin starts, in an effort to prevent it from ever starting. And that's why MINI's system was such a PITA. Now, the grey area is- how far in advance of wheelspin does TCS kick in?
As for how that would affect shifting- well, it's not so much the act of throwing the gear shift that's affected, but the smoothness with which you can transfer power thru the clutch and into the wheels. If the ECU tries to thwart your hard revving shifts in the interest of preventing wheelspin, the entire process can feel awkward.
Throw DSC into the mix when shifting with the wheel turned, and who knows how intrusive it might actually be?
I'm not saying that these things are absolutley happening with the MS3. But I know that they do happen with some cars, and it's possible that they are happening here. I'm interested in trying to find out.
I understand your point entirely. But there's a grey area here, too. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the TCS in the 1st generation new MINI would kick in well before wheel spin actually began. There was a 2-year investigation by MINI USA to resolve the "stumble/bog down on launch" issue that was was reported by thousands of MINI owners- even ones who weren't driving all that hard. There were times when I nearly caused accidents because of the severity of the bogging in 1st/2nd gears as I pulled into traffic. Disabling TCS all but completely stopped the stumble. My local MINI dealer's lead mechanic freely admitted that disabling the TCS would allow for much smoother, harder launches.
Many TCS systems actually kick in before whelespin starts, in an effort to prevent it from ever starting. And that's why MINI's system was such a PITA. Now, the grey area is- how far in advance of wheelspin does TCS kick in?
As for how that would affect shifting- well, it's not so much the act of throwing the gear shift that's affected, but the smoothness with which you can transfer power thru the clutch and into the wheels. If the ECU tries to thwart your hard revving shifts in the interest of preventing wheelspin, the entire process can feel awkward.
Throw DSC into the mix when shifting with the wheel turned, and who knows how intrusive it might actually be?
I'm not saying that these things are absolutley happening with the MS3. But I know that they do happen with some cars, and it's possible that they are happening here. I'm interested in trying to find out.
I think people are getting stuck on the word "Launch" in this thread. From what I have seen (reading between the lines) is that you are ALL talking about taking off slowly from say a light. Even H&A is talking about this even though he says "Launching" he is using it as a term to describe taking off normally.
As H&A has stated, I simply don't see how TCS/DSC has any effect unless you are driving hard to engage them. Under normal driving they should be in an off state with no effect until you meet the threshold to enable them.
There are only two things I see that can make you think the car drives better with them off (under NON-spirited driving).
1. It's a placebo effect.
2. With TCS on the ECU uses a different map table than when TCS is off. This map table may be a bit different thus the car may react differently. I have no clue.
As H&A has stated, I simply don't see how TCS/DSC has any effect unless you are driving hard to engage them. Under normal driving they should be in an off state with no effect until you meet the threshold to enable them.
There are only two things I see that can make you think the car drives better with them off (under NON-spirited driving).
1. It's a placebo effect.
2. With TCS on the ECU uses a different map table than when TCS is off. This map table may be a bit different thus the car may react differently. I have no clue.
happy and angry
Member
BillTheCat: I understand all that, but everyone here is being very careful to insist that the launches are not even hard, so again, they should not even be coming close to the grip threshold that would cause the TCS to kick in, and the DCS system is so hard to engage even under hard driving that I can't believe they are getting even remotely close to it.
Again, I find no difference shifting this car in day to day driving the the systems on or off. When I'm driving hard, yes, I see and feel the difference. Driving in traffic and just trying to be smooth, I find no issues. When I do bog or stumble or jerk a shift in daily driving, I know it's because of something I did. You can feel/hear the throttle plate being closed on you, and 95% of my driving never even comes close to this, even if I'm driving "firm" rather than hard.
If there is a problem with anyone's sensors or an ECU fault somewhere, I could buy having this problem, but I find my low speed, sedate shifting just as likely to not be smooth DSC/TCS on or off. I blame the sensitive clutch, the short gearing down low, and my own two feet. Not the computer.
Again, I find no difference shifting this car in day to day driving the the systems on or off. When I'm driving hard, yes, I see and feel the difference. Driving in traffic and just trying to be smooth, I find no issues. When I do bog or stumble or jerk a shift in daily driving, I know it's because of something I did. You can feel/hear the throttle plate being closed on you, and 95% of my driving never even comes close to this, even if I'm driving "firm" rather than hard.
If there is a problem with anyone's sensors or an ECU fault somewhere, I could buy having this problem, but I find my low speed, sedate shifting just as likely to not be smooth DSC/TCS on or off. I blame the sensitive clutch, the short gearing down low, and my own two feet. Not the computer.
The baseline fuel maps are put in place to find a good balance between performance and fuel economy and then adapt to our driving habits, don't they? I can't see Mazda having two or even three map tables in place for the different states of traction/stability control. Seems sort of like wasted effort on a manual, though. If it was a twin-clutch automated manual or some other type of automatic, yea, but.... They might have, though, it's possible.
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Based off of what I have seen using the ATR, they have many tables for different variables. Like take your BATs. There are tables for normal and high BAT's with different fueling and timing etc. for both.
I assume that there are different tables for if TCS is on or off. It might be as simple as if "in an off state ignore the on table completely, but if on follow the table rules". However, I'm not sure as there is no TCS/DCS info in the ATR as they only cover power stuff with the software.
So it is a possibility that the car follows a completely different table if TCS is off. However, I'm not positive this is the case but I do see it as a possibility.
I assume that there are different tables for if TCS is on or off. It might be as simple as if "in an off state ignore the on table completely, but if on follow the table rules". However, I'm not sure as there is no TCS/DCS info in the ATR as they only cover power stuff with the software.
So it is a possibility that the car follows a completely different table if TCS is off. However, I'm not positive this is the case but I do see it as a possibility.
Metro Gray
Member
This is also a great description of what I am feeling when I drive the MS3.
Last night I took the car out wearing my driving shoes and DSC on and I have to say that I was able to shift smoothly without thinking about it. I realized that the driving shoes allowed me to modulate the pedals with precision which prevented to much/little gas. I really think the DSC is cutting in and compensating for the amount of throttle while at the same time your body is also compensating for too much/little gas and the combination is causing the jerky starts.
- :
- 2010 Mazda CX-9 GT Dolphin Gray
I just find iot interesting...
That people think the MS3 is tough to drive slowly. Currently I drive mostly secondary roads to work with a traffic lights. I've been driving for over 25 years and one of the things I love about the MS3 is that it isn't musclebound or tough to drive smoothly. It did take a few days to get use to the clutch action but now I find it very civilized unless I want to thrash it a bit. Then again it could be my size 15 shoes. I may have enough leverage to keep things balanced while all you "average sized 9's and 10's are struggling
Bottom line there are sooooo many variables involves here that it's nearl impossible to figure out without a controlled experiment what is going on. For all we know half these people can't drive a manual tranny. No wonder it took Mini 2 years to figure out what the deal was.
FYI even the Mini situation is a unreliable data point. Unless I missed it does anyone know if the Mini's DSC programmed the same as the MS3? Probably not.
You guys who can't drive smoothly probably need a refresher on how to clutch and shift. Or you need to take off your high heels before you drive.(blowup)(deadhorse
(yes)(chair)
That people think the MS3 is tough to drive slowly. Currently I drive mostly secondary roads to work with a traffic lights. I've been driving for over 25 years and one of the things I love about the MS3 is that it isn't musclebound or tough to drive smoothly. It did take a few days to get use to the clutch action but now I find it very civilized unless I want to thrash it a bit. Then again it could be my size 15 shoes. I may have enough leverage to keep things balanced while all you "average sized 9's and 10's are struggling
Bottom line there are sooooo many variables involves here that it's nearl impossible to figure out without a controlled experiment what is going on. For all we know half these people can't drive a manual tranny. No wonder it took Mini 2 years to figure out what the deal was.
FYI even the Mini situation is a unreliable data point. Unless I missed it does anyone know if the Mini's DSC programmed the same as the MS3? Probably not.
You guys who can't drive smoothly probably need a refresher on how to clutch and shift. Or you need to take off your high heels before you drive.(blowup)(deadhorse
(yes)(chair)- :
- 2007 MS3
Just a thought. Like so many components with different tolerances, is it possible that for some cars, there is a sensor providing feedback with the system engaged that makes it respond as if the rpm and mph for the gear selected don`t match and it is reacting as if the car has lost traction and making adjustments while you are doing nothing more than shifting?
Nliiitend1
Member
I agree 100% with happy and angry in regards to the DSC making absolutely no difference when taking off from a stop (or accelerating/shifting) as long as you don't overcome the grip of the tires...
I don't know what you guys are smoking.
I don't know what you guys are smoking.
oaklandopen
Member
i tried turning dsc off the other day to see what would happen. i did notice a difference, an annoying bright-ass light in my instrument cluster that said "DSC OFF"
HOBDisease
Member
- :
- 07 Black Mica MS3
Many says that DSC and TCS may be trying to compensate for whatever variables that were stated. But note that whenever either system tries to compensate for anything their respective lamps will illuminate. So when you're driving under normal conditions and not driving the car hard neither one of the systems are doing anything. So even with DSC and TCS on it does not affect the car one bit in regards to how the clutch and the throttle are behaving. Remember, if either system is doing anything at all, their light will illuminate, period. If any of you MS3 owners that, no offense, lack the ability to adapt to this car's clutch and drive smoothly, and insists that the TCS/DSC are the culprits, then so be it. There's nothing else anyone can say that will change your mind.
And for you guys that don't believe pushing the DSC button will disable DSC and TCS, do a little experiment yourselves. Start the car, push the DSC button so that it says DSC OFF on your dash, find a remote parking lot, put the car in first gear then rev up to 5-6k and dump the clutch. Then while your car's torque roast your front tires to hell, tell me if you see the TCS symbol on your dash come on. It should right? Since the front tires are spinning free and your ecm sees that the back tires are moving at a much, much slower rate from their repsective wheel speed sensors. But OMFG!!!!, what do you know, by the time you realize that you're completely wrong, guess what? Your front tires are still roasting. And guess what else? The TCS symbol is not lit up or flashing one damn bit.
And for you guys that don't believe pushing the DSC button will disable DSC and TCS, do a little experiment yourselves. Start the car, push the DSC button so that it says DSC OFF on your dash, find a remote parking lot, put the car in first gear then rev up to 5-6k and dump the clutch. Then while your car's torque roast your front tires to hell, tell me if you see the TCS symbol on your dash come on. It should right? Since the front tires are spinning free and your ecm sees that the back tires are moving at a much, much slower rate from their repsective wheel speed sensors. But OMFG!!!!, what do you know, by the time you realize that you're completely wrong, guess what? Your front tires are still roasting. And guess what else? The TCS symbol is not lit up or flashing one damn bit.
