Did Volvo just seal the combustion engine's fate?

[fdew]

Looking forward to the day when an electric car can be refueled in 2-3 minutes, as fast as a gas tank.

The voltage to come close to that is extremely high at the moment - poses some real challenges with safety... maybe charging multiple banks in parallel at more moderate voltage.

Charging times are clearly important on a extended trip and I am one of those who wouldn't want to wait a hour or more for a full charge, but there is another side. The average Tesla owner only waits at a super charger a few times a year. The remaining part of his year he spends no time at all refilling. He does it is his garage while he sleeps. Also, when recharging a electric car doesn't need attention, so you can connect it and walk away.

I usually take about 4 trips a year where I would need to recharge a electric car if I had one. For me a excuse to get out and walk around for a while is welcome. In fact if I am driving over 5 hours I usually do it voluntarily. Oh, and for most Tesla owners the first 1000 miles of on the road charging each year, is free.

 

[sonoran]

Looking forward to the day when an electric car can be refueled in 2-3 minutes, as fast as a gas tank.

The voltage to come close to that is extremely high at the moment - poses some real challenges with safety... maybe charging multiple banks in parallel at more moderate voltage.

I look forward to it too. One thing that might mitigate the risk that is under development is automated connection. It's pretty easy to put a target on the charging plug that a sensor can detect and maneuver a robot arm to handle the connection/disconnection. There are several demonstrators of this in place now and they seem to work pretty well.

Voltages and power are already high (480v DC/120-145Kw) at Supercharging stations, I don't think upping that would make them any more lethal (you can't be any deader than dead), that said I haven't heard of anyone who's electrocuted themselves recharging their car. It doesn't seem to be any more dangerous in practice than handling a highly volatile, flammable/potentially explosive, poisonous, carcinogenic liquid. Especially if you consider the health ramifications of the local emissions from cars. I know you also have to consider the distal emissions from electric power plants, but in certain parts of the country, and where electric vehicles are most prevalent, electric power generation is cleaner than total emissions from well-head to exhaust pipe for gasoline. And the trend in virtually all states is toward more renewable energy.

Tesla also did a pilot of battery swapping: For the price of 15Gal of gas at the going rate the pilot Tesla station offered to swap a depleted battery for a fully charged one in an operation that would take 3 min. Then on the return trip the owner could get their original battery back fully charged at no cost. However almost no one was interested in doing this. Which might indicate that even current recharge times are not considered a significant inconvenience to Tesla owners.

 

[jasong7131]

Volvo is a relatively insignificant player and, like Xeler8ting said above, subject to the whims of their Chinese masters who can't decide from one minute to the next what to subsidize/mandate in their own market. Sad fate for a once proud marque.

I think they are doing much better under the new ownership.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[fdew]

Voltages and power are already high (480v DC/120-145Kw) at Supercharging stations, I don't think upping that would make them any more lethal (you can't be any deader than dead), that said I haven't heard of anyone who's electrocuted themselves recharging their car. It doesn't seem to be any more dangerous in practice than handling a highly volatile, flammable/potentially explosive, poisonous, carcinogenic liquid.

I don't believe the high voltage is there until the cord is connected to the car and there has been a software connection between the car and the charger.

 

[sonoran]

I don't believe the high voltage is there until the cord is connected to the car and there has been a software connection between the car and the charger.

I'm sure that's true, it seems to be pretty safe. I suppose the danger would be someone who attempts to disconnect or fiddles with the plug in the middle of charging, or a frayed/compromised insulator. But I don't even know how these things are designed, so I don't know how realistic of a concern that is. So far it seems to be a non-issue.

 

[dougal]

I think they are doing much better under the new ownership.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Actually, they are doing really well under new ownership, as is China for that mater!

 

[fdew]

I'm sure that's true, it seems to be pretty safe. I suppose the danger would be someone who attempts to disconnect or fiddles with the plug in the middle of charging, or a frayed/compromised insulator. But I don't even know how these things are designed, so I don't know how realistic of a concern that is. So far it seems to be a non-issue.

you need to get in the car and release the charger from the touch screen. The connector is locked to the car until you do, (and the car won't move until the connector is removed.)

 

[ScottLive5]

Unclean at Any Speed
Electric cars don’t solve the automobile’s environmental problems

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

 

[yrwei52]

I think the refueling/recharging issue for electric cars is the big deal as pointed out by Unob. On our recent road trip, I drove from Dallas to Houston, where we stopped for lunch, refueled and then drove to Galveston after. Refueling took me what, 5 minutes? If I was in an electric car, how long would I have had to stay recharging in Houston before I could continue on to Galveston? Even if there was a charging station in Houston, you would then be limited to getting lunch in places around the charging station. I don't know what the driving range are for electric cars, can they even get to Houston from Dallas without recharging along the way?

I'm all for electric cars and less pollution and a cleaner environment for the future, but a lot more has to improve before they can fully replace ICE vehicles.

Yes, A tesla would have made the trip from Houston from Dallas without recharging. It would take 15 to 30 min to recharge it for the trip to Galveston.

You're too optimistic about Tesla's range and charging time. Car and Driver had a $136,720 MSRP、5,000-lb. 2015 Tesla Model S P85D in their 36,000-mile long term test. "EPA rates the P85D at 253 miles per charge while our own real-world range test extracted 206 miles during a 75-mph highway cruise." And with AC on all the way in hot Texas I believe the real-world range will be even lower. This means there's no way you can drive from Dallas to Houston without a "supercharge"!

We all know electrical vehicles or batteries are good in the good weather. But in cold winter time? "Over the course of a 20-degree weekend with minimal charging, one editor saw 134 miles of driving range disappear to warming the battery, heating the cabin, and reduced efficiency."

Charging time? If you indeed can find a Tesla Supercharger Station before you reach to Houston, it can give you about another ideal 170 miles per 30-minute charge. But the supercharging is no longer included in the purchasing price starting from 2017 MY and you've to pay for it.

"Any trip that requires one or two Supercharger stops is relatively painless. Anything longer, however, quickly becomes tedious. Our coast-to-coast routine involved two or three hours of driving, followed by about 45 minutes of charging, rinse, repeat. We covered 3647 miles in four days, spending 57 hours behind the wheel and another 15 hours, 22 minutes plugged in (not including overnight charging). The slightly slower pace necessary (speed kills range) and the frequent extended stops mean a long-haul Tesla travels at Teamster speed. We passed and drafted familiar trucks for days at a time through middle Ameri*ca, but the real inconvenience is that your meals are dictated by Supercharger locations. Some stops are so bereft of services that youll yearn for the chance to eat at a Cracker Barrel."

Car and Driver 2015 Tesla Model S P85D EV Long-term Test Wrap-up

 

[fdew]

The S is now available as a 100 D with a EPA range of 335 miles Supercharger is free for 400 kWh enough to drive about 1,000 miles each year. BTW Car and driver did considerably better the second year they owned the car.

 

[yrwei52]

⋯ I'm all for electric cars and less pollution and a cleaner environment for the future, but a lot more has to improve before they can fully replace ICE vehicles.

Not necessary true on less pollution and cleaner environment. You basically transfer the pollution from vehicles to power plants, especially in US electricity generation we have 33.8% using natural gas and 30.4% using coal which generate large amount of CO2 and other pollutants!

 

[yrwei52]

Unclean at Any Speed
Electric cars dont solve the automobiles environmental problems

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

Nice article!

⋯ For instance, Richard Pike of the Royal Society of Chemistry provocatively determined that electric cars, if widely adopted, stood to lower Britains carbon dioxide emissions by just 2 percent, given the U.K.s electricity sources. Last year, a U.S. Congressional Budget Office study found that electric car subsidies will result in little or no reduction in the total gasoline use and greenhouse-gas emissions of the nations vehicle fleet over the next several years.

 

[warwick5s]

Not necessary true on less pollution and cleaner environment. You basically transfer the pollution from vehicles to power plants, especially in US electricity generation we have 33.8% using natural gas and 30.4% using coal which generate large amount of CO2 and other pollutants!

How clean your electric car is varies greatly on where you live.

On the West Coast between you come out ahead by a good amount with an electric. In places with lots of coal plants you don't.

 

[finch204]

Not necessary true on less pollution and cleaner environment. You basically transfer the pollution from vehicles to power plants, especially in US electricity generation we have 33.8% using natural gas and 30.4% using coal which generate large amount of CO2 and other pollutants!

That's why I said a lot has to improve before electric cars will be the norm. My one prerequisite to owning a electric car would be to have a solar powered home. If I can't get that, I'll stick with fuel efficient ICE vehicles.

 

[yrwei52]

The S is now available as a 100 D with a EPA range of 335 miles Supercharger is free for 400 kWh enough to drive about 1,000 miles each year. BTW Car and driver did considerably better the second year they owned the car.

Tesla Model S P100D is 244 lbs heavier than already heavy 4,936-lb P85D. EPA 335 miles means 273 real-world miles at constant 70 mph. Factor in hot and cold weather it means even less! With new Tesla Model S P100D it'd still be a reach from Dallas to Houston with AC on without charging. 1,000-mile free supercharging per year is not much either.

 

[yrwei52]

That's why I said a lot has to improve before electric cars will be the norm. My one prerequisite to owning a electric car would be to have a solar powered home. If I can't get that, I'll stick with fuel efficient ICE vehicles.

Although we do have a lot of sun, but it won't be cost effective on solar power in our DFW area with frequent hail storms and tornados ⋯ (whistle)

 

[fdew]

Tesla Model S P100D is 244 lbs heavier than already heavy 4,936-lb P85D. EPA 335 miles means 273 real-world miles at constant 70 mph. Factor in hot and cold weather it means even less! With new Tesla Model S P100D it'd still be a reach from Dallas to Houston with AC on without charging. 1,000-mile free supercharging per year is not much either.

Its 239 Miles so it looks like it would be easy with a S 100D 1,000-mile free supercharging per year would cover most peoples vacations. As I wrote earlier When commuting or traveling around home base, most owners are charging there cars at home over night so they don't use the local supercharger.

 

[craigo]

I look forward to it too. One thing that might mitigate the risk that is under development is automated connection. It's pretty easy to put a target on the charging plug that a sensor can detect and maneuver a robot arm to handle the connection/disconnection. There are several demonstrators of this in place now and they seem to work pretty well.

Voltages and power are already high (480v DC/120-145Kw) at Supercharging stations, I don't think upping that would make them any more lethal (you can't be any deader than dead), that said I haven't heard of anyone who's electrocuted themselves recharging their car. It doesn't seem to be any more dangerous in practice than handling a highly volatile, flammable/potentially explosive, poisonous, carcinogenic liquid. Especially if you consider the health ramifications of the local emissions from cars. I know you also have to consider the distal emissions from electric power plants, but in certain parts of the country, and where electric vehicles are most prevalent, electric power generation is cleaner than total emissions from well-head to exhaust pipe for gasoline. And the trend in virtually all states is toward more renewable energy.

Tesla also did a pilot of battery swapping: For the price of 15Gal of gas at the going rate the pilot Tesla station offered to swap a depleted battery for a fully charged one in an operation that would take 3 min. Then on the return trip the owner could get their original battery back fully charged at no cost. However almost no one was interested in doing this. Which might indicate that even current recharge times are not considered a significant inconvenience to Tesla owners.

With higher voltages you run into issues of stray voltage - in the right/wrong conditions you can induce dangerous voltage nearby without actually having contact. Generally this is in the kilovolt+ range.

 

[Unobtanium]

KERS might take some time to come to regular cars but the weight addition would be minimal - Volvo completed some tests on a KERS system few years ago.
You are true about city cars but as a % of total fuel burnt city cars are a big chunk. More and more bumper to bumper gridlocks are getting common burning more fuel.

I believe KERS is already going in street cars. I forgot who, but sub 100k price I think. Acura? Lexus? I forgot.

 

[Kaps]

Unclean at Any Speed
Electric cars dont solve the automobiles environmental problems

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

Thanks for creating a profile and sharing an article which is bulls*** from top to bottom.
First the author tries to establish that there is a nexus between promoters of electrics and Ford. Ford - yes i know they sell millions electric? Right. Then it tries to say that "Im not suggesting that corporate sponsorship automatically leads people to massage their research data. But it can shape findings in more subtle ways." What a load of bull. Tesla cannot sell directly in Texas (its 2nd biggest market after CA) - because free market needs dealers - another pile of Bull crap. So the author is saying that there is a lobby for electric cars as if we are stupid enough not to realize the lobbying done by big 3 in US and fossil fuel industry.

The article also says that electrics are expensive ? Duh. I never knew the first LED / Plasma TVs etc. were bought by regular blue / white collared folks or was it the rich? Electrics are new tech. no regular joe can afford it unless they are a geek and make sacrifices - probably 2 decades down the line we will thank the early adopters for their sacrifice. There are still 1st gen Rav4 electrics being used.

Not necessary true on less pollution and cleaner environment. You basically transfer the pollution from vehicles to power plants, especially in US electricity generation we have 33.8% using natural gas and 30.4% using coal which generate large amount of CO2 and other pollutants!

Thing with Coal is - it is about to die. Nothing can save it. The coal that was easy to be mined is long gone - the jobs it creates is few and far between with the added bonus of black lung disease.
Wind is much cheaper.
The 30% is on decline and will continue to decline till a critical point - after which it will crash, suppliers will stop supplying parts to keep the coal plants running. This fact alone will force utility companies to switch en masse to other forms. It wont be as sudden as kodak / digital photos because it takes time, but that time is what stands between coal and its demise.

When you have two of the world's largest Coal users - India and China trying to cut down on mining and usage, its a big sign of things to come. I would say by 2030 - Coal would RIP.

And the comment on UK emissions being affected only 2% is same as saying the chances of heart attack for Americans above 300 lbs decrease by only 2% if they cut down on junk food. You are literally taking the worst major country in EU as an example. France / Germany and Scandinavian countries trump UK by a big margin by switching to electric because their electricity generation is more reliant on renewables.

If people are interested - Netflix has a documentary Islands of the Future - where islands go green, it is a very nice set of 5-6 episodes.