Cost vs. Power: N/A Built Motor

[Installshield 2]

Run a 7 PSI turbo setup. It will be $3000.00 or less and will get you much more in HP than any NA build for double the cost that you can come up with...

Impossibly incorrect...

Case in point...I brake dyno'd 217bhp peak (so roughly 190ish whp, depending on how accurate our stock engine rating is...my guess is it isn't accurate)...Now I realize that is not blowing away any 7psi turbo kit, but it withstands your statement...My point being, the work I did to the engine could easily be had for just on 3 grand...and that includes a standalone...and no turbo kit on earth for 3 grand has a standalone, or even a decent intercooler at that price...

So rephrase what you are saying...Turbo's make torque...so call it correctly...Any 7psi turbo kit will make a lot more torque than any NA build costing twice as much...

 

[Installshield 2]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone wanting to go FI...Its definately easier...we have beaten this horse a million times after it was already dead...and all of us are tired of beating on dead animals...

The only thing I will do is point out, as in my above post, that a lot of the time NA gets a bad rap for being so "unproductive"...its simply not true...Ignorant principles get kicked around, that make everything out to be what it isn't...

Ultimately its anyones decision on what they do...we are all driving proteges...but you have lots of options on what to do to it...Go FI, I don't give a s***...The only thing that pisses me off are idiots...if buy a turbo kit, and come bugging me for a decent header...I will hate you...so don't do it...

 

[Installshield 2]

Finally this SC stuff...a SC is the fundamental system of FI...the easiest way to do it...But a true hardcore NA engine wants nothing to do with an SC...If you truely build an engine for only NA, all kinds of things are different than what would be optimum for even a Simple low boost SC...

All I am saying is that for example the engine I built...wouldn't touch an SC with a ten foot pole...13:1 Static CR and anything close to 100%+ V.E. = grenade...But I understand that not everyone in NA running extreme compression...which is fine, and in most cases you can run a little higher compression and a SC...which would equal a beast...But lets not be ignorant...even SC equipped cars DO have different head requirements than a screaming NA engine...High duration cams with scavenging incorporated overlap degrees would be hopeless with an SC or turbo...you would be pushing fresh air and fuel right out of the head, by means of the pressurized flow still coming in...it wouldn't work right...Matty is correct than an SC has much different cam requirements than a turbo...but an NA engine has the most exact cam needs for the most power everywhere, that are different still than that of an engine with an SC...

an SC will work great on any mild NA build up though....So it is not completely wrong that a WOMP kit would be awesome on an NA engine...but once the envelope is pushed more towards extreme NA goodness, the SC will not be as much of a welcome friend under the hood...

 

[Installshield 2]

The FS is a terrible engine (there, I said it) and the only way to make power is FI.


THERE, I SAID IT PEOPLE.

Please inform us all on how you think it is so terrible...before that, I am not touching this...

 

[Gen1GT]

Don't listen to josh. Ever. Go spray or go boost. Don't do N/A. It's a lot of money and is not worth it at all.

Listen up. Kyle said THIS first. This s*** pisses me off. I'm nothing but supportive for everyone on this forum. If you guys wanna get all b****y about it and tell me I'm wrong for coming back with a cheapshot too, then I'll gladly take my s*** and leave(metaphorically speaking)

Jamie, I'm disappointed in you. You're normally the one with his head on straight and looks at things from an objective perspective......

 

[Installshield 2]

Sir...you missed what I posted...I was not attacking you for responding to Kyle's post...I was approaching you because of your long tradition of having no regard for FI...It is fine...all I said was that I wanted to avoid the FI vs. NA fighting that happens in here sometimes...and the poke at your comment to kyle was in general, although reading back on it makes me sound like an asshole...Anyway, point being...kyle has more experience with NA'ing this engine than a lot of people...and your comment about oil problems has always been a big concern for me...so i reacted in a hostile manner...sorry dude...

I edited what I said too...you read what was originally there, and I was out of line...I was not trying to point anything you said out...I just was a little drunk and came onto this thread, and a s***-storm of BS was everywhere...sorry about that...But I hate it when it comes into arguments on which way to go...who gives a s***, you like NA...I like NA...some other guys like NA...and then everyone else says "go turbo"...if they go turbo, so what...it affects no one but them...thats all...it gets to a point where we really look retarded when we argue about it...and its embarrasing (sp?)...but you didn't do anything specifically...so I apologize for the comment...

 

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

thanx for all the useful info guys, appreciate it.

 

[PR5Matt]

Wow! Gone a couple of days and things get out of hand!

 

[Super Matty P]

Wow! Gone a couple of days and things get out of hand!

yeah, what else is new?!?!

In all honesty though couldn't these threads just all be consolidated into one big stupid thread where the FI and NA guys just argue of whats cooler/cheaper/easier/more unique??


this whole thread could be summed up with:

NA costs money. How fast do you wanna go?
(cricket)

 

[pluto316]

Please inform us all on how you think it is so terrible...before that, I am not touching this...

Super long stroke. Dated head design. Weak rods and internals. Don't go kidding yourself thinking you drive a SR20DE or a H22. I am just realistic. I like my car and I'll keep doing upgrades but at the end of the day I know that if I bought a Honda I'd still be going faster. I guess that's part of the fun? But seriously, the FS is a huge boat anchor.

 

[Super Matty P]

i'd have to say it's the head more than anything that is the FS's limiting factor. If I had a CNC Mill I'd love to make an all new head./intake. just to see what I could with it....go back to a SOHC design and just have massive ports on the inlet and exhaust.

 

[Installshield 2]

Super long stroke. Dated head design. Weak rods and internals. Don't go kidding yourself thinking you drive a SR20DE or a H22. I am just realistic. I like my car and I'll keep doing upgrades but at the end of the day I know that if I bought a Honda I'd still be going faster. I guess that's part of the fun? But seriously, the FS is a huge boat anchor.

First of all...I am not kidding myself that I am driving anything...But its annoying to get claims from someone that hasn't done s*** to the engine...or someone that saying it has no NA potential , when all they did was hung a turbo off of it...You drive an MSP...Do you really know anything about this engine as far as NA?

The FS's forged crank is as strong as any pedigree 4 cylinder, such as the 4G63, BP, etc...Long stroke doesn't make it a "crappy" engine either...and the iron block is extremely strong as well...

In stock form it is a terd...its not physically bad, but North American marketing has turned it in to a lethargic mill that is for the most part worthless...but that does not mean it does not have potential with whatever you do with it...The long stroke limits rpm, but helps with lowend V.E....which despite big lumpy cams for high end breathing, still allows great lowend punch...The short rods also limit dwell times, allowing the engine to run extremely high compression and high degrees of ignition advance without detonation (when properly tuned)...and once upgraded to a forged set of rods/pistons, its unbreakable (short rods are inherantly stronger in general...19/20mm wrist pins and you are set)

 

[Installshield 2]

i'd have to say it's the head more than anything that is the FS's limiting factor. If I had a CNC Mill I'd love to make an all new head./intake. just to see what I could with it....go back to a SOHC design and just have massive ports on the inlet and exhaust.

Its not so much just the head...its simply the fact that we have 83mm bore, which leaves little room for anything...So you can fix the head to a point, but you are still limited on how big you can go...But it really doesn't flow that bad, once it gets a real set of cams...the stock ones are pathetic, but a much larger duration cam set and some decent galley cutting can really free it up...Ask Andy...

 

[Brian MP5T]

So rephrase what you are saying...Turbo's make torque...so call it correctly...Any 7psi turbo kit will make a lot more torque than any NA build costing twice as much...

(cricket)

So, I don't get it, My answer and yours are the same...

 

[pluto316]

First of all...I am not kidding myself that I am driving anything...But its annoying to get claims from someone that hasn't done s*** to the engine...or someone that saying it has no NA potential , when all they did was hung a turbo off of it...You drive an MSP...Do you really know anything about this engine as far as NA?

Actually I owned a P5 before my MSP. I've had the FS for a while, thanks.

The FS's forged crank is as strong as any pedigree 4 cylinder, such as the 4G63, BP, etc...Long stroke doesn't make it a "crappy" engine either...and the iron block is extremely strong as well...

Yes, the crank as shown to put up with a lot of abuse, but the rods can't. Throw a rod and let's see how long the block lasts. Once again, throw in the long stroke and you have yourself a nice bomb under your hood at redline. Bore > Stroke. I don't see anyone saying "MAN I WISH MY CAR HAD LESS BORE AND MORE STROKE." on an extremely oversquare engine like ours.

In stock form it is a terd...its not physically bad, but North American marketing has turned it in to a lethargic mill that is for the most part worthless...but that does not mean it does not have potential with whatever you do with it...

As long as you are realistc and not expect more than low 200whp N/A. If you are cool with that a N/A FS is right up your alley. On the other hand F/I the motor has the potential to be a low 300whp.. Ah damn it.. I wish I could swap in a b18.

The long stroke limits rpm, but helps with lowend V.E....which despite big lumpy cams for high end breathing, still allows great lowend punch...

So could a well chosen turbo setup. Only I could have decent HP numbers with that too.

The short rods also limit dwell times, allowing the engine to run extremely high compression and high degrees of ignition advance without detonation (when properly tuned)...and once upgraded to a forged set of rods/pistons, its unbreakable (short rods are inherantly stronger in general...19/20mm wrist pins and you are set)

So shorter stroke IS better?

If you want to do bolt-ons in a FS and be happy with it, that's fine. But when you want to talk about cost vs. power on an FS.. (ugh)

 

[Brian MP5T]

Mega Reply

 

[nate0123]

Mega Reply

Mini Reply

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

Pluto don't make me drive over to your house and smack you.

Josh, don't get all pissy with me. I'm not the only one who's tired of your banter about N/A on your motor. Notice your the only one here with that motor in this section? It's not a bad thing, do your thing, I'll do mine. But for christ's sake don't stick your nose into a conversation and offer advice and suggestions thats ONLY relevant to your motor. You just bring nothing to the table unless its somehow related to YOUR car or about how great a ******* miata sounds with silly ITB's.


Moreover, N/A is great. If it wasn't, Installshield, Scorch, Flat_Black and the rest of my N/A posse wouldn't be devoted to it. However, it's a completely different thing when people expect huge gains for relatively cheap. It's not going to happen. Ever. So lets all give each other a hug and move on. Cripes.

 

[Mr. Win]

:hug:

 

[Nightmare]

I just love the general aspect of N/A building. it seems more pure than f/i, less like cheating, you know.. in a game i can become invincable by initiating a cheat program, or i could play the game, and learn from my mistakes. i risk dying of course, but the knowledge i gain on the way is far more plyable than that of a hacked program...